Quote:

Spectre660 wrote: Everyone relax and look at the world wide OS market share numbers. http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8

Interesting, but I'm skeptical. For example, what's the aggregation? Well... I asked it to give me "this year". And as I kind of expected, it gave me just over 5% for MacOS, which is more or less where Apple's been hovering, world-wide, for some time now.

But they put iOS at 1.95%. Now, Apple sells 3-5 million Macs in a quarter, depending on the quarter. 4Q2010, they sold 14 million iPhones... that's more than all the Macs they sold in 2010, in just one quarter. And even more Android devices were sold, worldwide, in 4Q2010. Android also outsold iPhone first two quarters of 2010.

So really, there's something not quite kosher about this chart, if the time frame function actually works.

(Fixed a quote that messed up the layout /tomazkid )

Last edited by tomazkid on 22-Apr-2011 at 10:52 PM.

@Hammer

Quote:

E7-8870 was launched in the month April i.e. in Q2 2011 not Q1 2011 results.

I wasn't commenting on the E7-8870 and its relation to Qx results. I was simply pointing out that Intel hasn't been sharpening its pencil at all recently. No decent competition = high gross margins.

But that is an amazing chip - 30MB cache! Getting close to Power7 scale oomph.

@hazydave
Of course, I don't think the PA6T is a monstrous CPU by todays standards (although considering AmigaOS runs quite well on my weak PPC unit, I would guess it will rock on that thing) but BEFORE you invest the needed capital for high volume production (low prices+good performance included) you need something appealing to put there, a significantly better AmigaOS.
When they decided to do the X1000 they sampled CPUs and consulted with all AOS developers and beta testers (many of which are also developers of AOS software) and considering their roadmap (what they want to add to AOS in the next major commercial release) the PA6T was the best option for a PPC machine whose main intent is to provide a competent platform for developers to work on, while still resembling as close as possible future CPUs.
Other options were either single core and low clocked, or were 32-bit only with no altivec.
The second target user for the machine (since they are making this expensive low volume computer) will be the AOS4 power user or enthusiast, BUT selling it to Average Joe was never the idea because AOS in the end cannot appeal even to ex-amigans if it doesn't grow in many aspects.

If this project goes well (they sell the finite number of machines in a not so long period and evolve AmigaOS as intended) the next project will take place.

How can the next project be both powerful and decently priced?

last year intel announced they will enter the high-end side of the embedded market with their i5 and i7 CPUs actually bringing desktop performance in LINK

To this announcement 6 months later FreeScale responded with THIS

They might make up to 8 cores variants and judjing from the past/roadmap the maximum Mhz count will rise yet again (probably up to 3.0Ghz), not to mention a new e6000 core might be used (we already know the Altivec unit is a new and improved one).

OpenCL is a future possibility too for Amiga, and coupled with a CPU of the above class (which might provide desktop perfomance) the lack of performance might not be a problem any longer.

As for the price the harsh competition with intel is expected to bring prices down. Free-scale is already cheaper than PA6T anyway (although at the moment they don't offer a CPU that is both 64-Bit and altivec equipped), but it'll get even cheaper hopefully, this time offering CPUs far more powerful than PA6T (and thus making the possibility of a more powerful and less priced X2000 a reality).

Due to piracy Hyperion will never sell the os for generic X86 mobos anyway, and they would go the Apple route, with worse prices of course, so x86 will never mean "cheap" for AmigaOS.
It would only mean another 3 years of wait for an "X86 AOS" that's exactly as we see it today.

Hyperion will better use its development time for modernizing the OS, an "Apple priced" (1295 including LCD monitor maybe?) and powerful PPC machine can be made out of future FreeScale chips. Leave the 5020 or earlier models alone, they are not interesting for us, what will be interesting to see will be the new ones that will come out from the battle with intel.
Add OpenCL to the mix and we're set (join back in then!! ).

Last edited by DAX on 21-Apr-2011 at 09:11 AM.
Last edited by DAX on 21-Apr-2011 at 09:05 AM.

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@gregthecanuck

Quote:

gregthecanuck wrote: @Hammer Quote: E7-8870 was launched in the month April i.e. in Q2 2011 not Q1 2011 results. I wasn't commenting on the E7-8870 and its relation to Qx results. I was simply pointing out that Intel hasn't been sharpening its pencil at all recently. No decent competition = high gross margins. But that is an amazing chip - 30MB cache! Getting close to Power7 scale oomph.

If you read http://techreport.com/discussions.x/20803

"while Atom CPU and chipset revenue climbed by 4% compared to last year"

Q1 2011's gross margin fell to 61% from Q4 2010's 67.5%

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@DAX

Quote:

last year intel announced they will enter the high-end side of the embedded market with their i5 and i7 CPUs actually bringing desktop performance in LINK

On the mobile space, Intel replaced the 1st gen Core i5/i7s e.g. Intel Core i7-2657M Processor (4M Cache, 1.60 GHz) which has 17 watts max TDP.

Quote:

To this announcement 6 months later FreeScale responded with THIS

Intel Sandybridge's AVX SIMD is 256bit wide and it has IGP rivaling AMD Radeon HD 5450.

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@hazydave

Quote:

hazydave wrote: They still don't understand clean room development. If you have seen the Amiga source code, you cannot produce a legally separate work-alike. So any copied comments are absolute proof that the code is dirty. And they're not rejecting my claim, if you go back into those linked documents, that the comments were copied.

@Itix @hazydave
That's a good description about "clean room development" IMR the laws in the US and the EU are quite different. In the US you have to do a clean room development. The laws in the EU are different, as long as you don't copy the code nearly everything is legal. Stealing code in the EU means you have stolen a document, it doesn't matter what kind of document it was. If it comes to court case someone has to prove the code was stolen.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@hazydave

Quote:

hazydave wrote: @Rassilon Quote: Rassilon wrote: What you said about RAW image loading, h264 decoding etc is very true, however PCs circumvent some of those issues with GPU hardware assists. But as you say a G3 class CPU won't cut it. Actually, GPU acceleration can be a very big thing. I have a dual core, Core2 laptop at 2.4GHz, which can just barely play back standard 1080/60i video... forget 1080/60p. Even on my six core AMD desktop, 1080/60p playback can go as high as 60% of all CPU, depending on which player you use. But run a player that uses GPU acceleration (even Windows Media Player, in Windows 7), and the CPU load drops down to about 6%. That's via the DXVA 2.0 API, which isn't general purpose computing like OpenCL, but dedicated specifically to video rendering. And this is with a nVidia 8800GT GPU... hardly the latest thing. This is also why I loved the idea of AmigaOS for PPC on the PS3. The PS3 CPU is no match for even a cheapish desktop (3.2GHz, but very simple design for a PPC), but between the GPU and the SPEs, the PS3 can decode multiple HD streams.

STI CELL vs Intel Core i7

From http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-109002.html

"under XMB, they managed to decode FullHD H264 clip up to 50Mbps with only 3 SPEs."

Toshiba's SPE based solution includes H264 decode/encode hardware.

From http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=157701

"The Cell is a pretty slow CPU. It takes roughly 2.5 cores (out of 8) to do realtime 1080p H.264 decoding with a highly optimized decoder. A fast i7 can do that with about ~0.4 cores (out of 4 or 6)."

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Apr-2011 at 10:39 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Apr-2011 at 10:38 AM.

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@Hammer
A QorlQ P60x0 + , say, a Radeon HD 5870, would be several orders of magnitude faster than an Xbox 360, and I'm sure you've seen how good Gears of War 2 looks there. THE Problem is, even though you could probably run gears even on the X1000+HD4890 (let alone a potential successor) the chances for such a complex game to surface on Amiga are nill.
We'll be lucky to get Doom3 and by the time an eventual X2000 comes out, we might (maybe) hope for Quake4, which means that the Amigas available will be several orders of magnitude faster than what's needed for those.

If you are a follower and user of the bleeding edge advancements (as I know you are) than you have no place for MacOS or Linux either (the only option for you is Microsoft Windows), because when you have such gear you also need software that fully uses it.
MacOS and Linux don't have games using the latest DX11 tech, and professional software that uses certain new features is only available for Windows.
Take the latest Composite from Autodesk, it's the only software using AVX for example.

However there is still people that wants to use Amiga, Macs or Linux, so I hope you are not trying to convince all the above crowds to scrap their favorite platforms and move to Windows, it would be a waste of time...

Last edited by DAX on 21-Apr-2011 at 10:37 AM.

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@Hammer

Hammer the wikipedia boy

Tired of your raw data and even often irrelevant

_________________
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Make Amiga Great Again

am I the only one that is seeing only 28 pages of this thread from the homepage and getting 29 when in the thread? Also, the formatting is off in the last few posts.

_________________

@DAX

Quote:

A QorlQ P60x0 + , say, a Radeon HD 5870, would be several orders of magnitude faster than an Xbox 360, and I'm sure you've seen how good Gears of War 2 looks there. THE Problem is, even though you could probably run gears even on the X1000+HD4890 (let alone a potential successor) the chances for such a complex game to surface on Amiga are nill.

That configuration would be expensive i.e. the die size of Xbox 360 Slim’s XCGPU is about 169mm^2. AMD's Llano APU die size is roughly 170mm^2.

Anyway, Gears of War 2 runs on Unreal Engine 3.x.

Do you think Nintendo's Wii 2 has HD 4870 level GPU?

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@hazydave

I think that one thing that Hyperion are wary of is piracy.
This is why they stick mainly to "dongled" hardware.
If you have any options to prevent this then it could open the door to
later ports down the road.

Quote:

This is also why I loved the idea of AmigaOS for PPC on the PS3. The PS3 CPU is no match for even a cheapish desktop (3.2GHz, but very simple design for a PPC), but between the GPU and the SPEs, the PS3 can decode multiple HD streams.

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@Hammer
Indeed Unreal Engine 3 something we'll never see! (pun intended )

Wii 2: we'll find out at e3 this year I guess...

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@hazydave

The Apple Q2 2011 numbers are indeed impressive.
The reality is that the use of small computing devices is the future.

_________________
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@hazydave
Quote:

This is also why I loved the idea of AmigaOS for PPC on the PS3. The PS3 CPU is no match for even a cheapish desktop (3.2GHz, but very simple design for a PPC), but between the GPU and the SPEs, the PS3 can decode multiple HD streams.

Many Amigans wish to run AmigaOS on a common, yet powerful platform like PS3.

- Do you think porting AOS to PS3/PS4 is a viable project?
- Is Sony approachable in this sense?

Waj

@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote: @Hammer Hammer the wikipedia boy Tired of your raw data and even often irrelevant

Like Beyond3D's forums, http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=157701 is not wikipedia.

Amiga doesn’t have a monopoly on PowerPC vs X86.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Apr-2011 at 11:26 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Apr-2011 at 11:22 AM.

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@Hammer
Quote:

Quote: I wasn't commenting on the E7-8870 and its relation to Qx results. I was simply pointing out that Intel hasn't been sharpening its pencil at all recently. No decent competition = high gross margins. But that is an amazing chip - 30MB cache! Getting close to Power7 scale oomph. If you read http://techreport.com/discussions.x/20803 "while Atom CPU and chipset revenue climbed by 4% compared to last year" Q1 2011's gross margin fell to 61% from Q4 2010's 67.5%

60-whatever% margins would be considered high gross margins, would they not? I don't understand the point you are trying to make??

@Arko

Quote:

Stealing code in the EU means you have stolen a document, it doesn't matter what kind of document it was.

Did someone steal a document?

Quote:

If it comes to court case someone has to prove the code was stolen.

Shame that Hyperion never went that far. The MorphOS team was always ready for the court case but Hermans chickened out. It was also bad for the Amiga community because it led to this Hyperion mistrust.

Last edited by itix on 21-Apr-2011 at 11:47 AM.

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Well, I have said enough - wise people will understand my idea.

Currently the german government is not very quick in doing what I want but mostly I wrote here about "Germany" and thus a privat funded solution is not ruled out. A good company maybe a pretty good start but in the long run I prefer a public or state-owned solution (a company can be bought and buggered).

Luckily a perfect OS (secure, stable, fast, real time capable, ...) is of interest for a company also and some companies can spend millions even easier than some governments. A company which intents to devolop and use AmigaOS must therefore be good (in not using Wintel - if you get my drift). A real good AmigaOS is not in the interest of MS, Apple and maybe even Linux - so beware.

I have some ideas of what may come and this includes AmigaOS as being better and more used than Linux or MS in perhaps only 10 years. Could say a magic word for clue but because I can't be certain I shouldn't (well, I can give you a riddle: "sex - today - yesterday" - hopefully not enough to tell but to prove I was right if I will be right).

All I write is imho, as usual. I myself am also curious if my expectations will become real.

Something to discuss (so you don't need to grumble about the above said):

What are the applications that need real big CPU power?
- video encoding, creating films/animations,
- highly animated 3D games for hires screens,
- and very important for the future: artificial intelligence (ai) as in supercomputers (also to help development) and robots but there you need to have smart ideas, a good OS, secure/reliable/powerefficient chips firstly. A cool vision of independent conscious spaceships can be found in Hinweise und Verbesserungsvorschläge (currently between 28.01.11 and 29.03.11 see keywords: "Superraumschiff", "Supercomputer" - sorry, only in German and only of interest for those who have to think of future decades/centuries).

Joe Average doesn't need this at present and therefore no superfast CPU in his PC.

The future needs good chips and a good OS and AmigaOS can very well evolve with PPC (other CPU will be supported later). It may be very advantageous if developers have to search for smart and efficient solutions because of not so fast (but cheap and low power) chips.

@gregthecanuck

Quote:

... 60-whatever% margins would be considered high gross margins, would they not? I don't understand the point you are trying to make??

My post was designed for KingKong's "AmigaOS is no dead end - Intel and MSwindows more likely are" claims.

Quote:

KingKong wrote: AmigaOS is no dead end - Intel and MSwindows more likely are. Admittedly someone must convince Germany (or the EU) that AmigaOS can be a better choice than Linux and I can't do this because I don't know enough of these operating systems.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Apr-2011 at 12:35 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Apr-2011 at 12:16 PM.

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