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Daedalus 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 6-Aug-2015 14:40:12
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1603
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:

(but I might end up getting a windows computer to run elite dangerous, to do something useless)


That's currently my favourite useless thing to do It's also the reason I built my first new PC in about 15 years, and the reason I upgraded to Windows 7. It's nice to have the speed boost, but everything else I used Windows for (photography stuff basically) worked just fine before.

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thinkchip 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 3:56:49
#22 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Mar-2004
Posts: 1082
From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

@Chris_Y

I agree (I think). With all the (apparently almost insurmountable) challenges involved in getting OS 4.2 out the door, I would spend time and energy on advancing the OS rather than making it backwards compatible. Like you said, there isn't really anything much worth the bother. Run legacy software on UAE.

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OlafS25 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 9:34:45
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5098
From: Unknown

@thinkchip

I often read such comments... why bother with legacy? Then most existing native software would not run anymore and who will rewrite it (if sources are available at all) or create new? And here I mean PPC native software (not the 68k)

Last edited by OlafS25 on 07-Aug-2015 at 09:35 AM.

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KimmoK 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 12:10:33
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5057
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@wawa

" in what would that ppc console be different to what they offer now?"

I think the idea would be to increase the sales of the Amiga compatible HW and nowdays it means PPC.

End user would see it as yet another toy beside other toys.
But perhaps this toy offers Amiga retro desktops and NG desktops, for extra fun?

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
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// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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kamelit0 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 12:34:21
#25 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2011
Posts: 589
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

I don't think that it'll take time to Hyperion to add the needed code to FS-UAE for example to run PPC software. That is what Hyperion and Morphos Team will do once they go to X86 but by then maybe everything will be in the Cloud....
Kamelito

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OlafS25 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 12:44:53
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5098
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

I was long away (left shortly after bankruptsy of commodore) and returned some years ago now. For me PPC is emotional not different to ARM or X64, just another processor family. And that is certainly the case for most other users outside, expecially those without any amiga roots. They will ask what advantage has PPC? Is it faster or cheaper? Your answer...

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KimmoK 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 18-Aug-2015 9:56:37
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5057
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@OlafS25

To me PPC "just" shares the same (sane) endianess as 68k, otherwise it nowdays does not have any important advantage vs ARM or x64.
("sane" endianess is inline with keeping things simple philosophy of 68k amigas)

>just another processor family. And that is certainly the case for most other users outside, expecially those without any amiga roots. They will ask what advantage has PPC? Is it faster or cheaper? Your answer...

More compatible with 68k than those others.

+More powerfull than 68k.
+slower than x64
+component prices are the ~same

((PPC SoC might be simpler+cheaper to use for SBC projects than x64, might offer different things than ARM SoC))

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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OlafS25 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 18-Aug-2015 10:01:54
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5098
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

you mean amiga users are comforted to underpowered and overprized amigas

most people outside with no amiga roots do not care about how it compares to 68k and you still have emulation

It would be a hard sell outside the existing community

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TRIPOS 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 18-Aug-2015 10:17:09
#29 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 839
From: Unknown

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:

you mean amiga users are comforted to underpowered and overprized amigas


The few hundreds who remains perhaps, but not the ten thousand or more who left when Acube presented the €1000 Samantha systems and Aeon-Kit presented the €3000 X1000 systems as the way forward for OS4...

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cdimauro 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 19-Aug-2015 5:52:55
#30 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 1832
From: Germany

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:
@OlafS25

To me PPC "just" shares the same (sane) endianess as 68k, otherwise it nowdays does not have any important advantage vs ARM or x64.
("sane" endianess is inline with keeping things simple philosophy of 68k amigas)

>just another processor family. And that is certainly the case for most other users outside, expecially those without any amiga roots. They will ask what advantage has PPC? Is it faster or cheaper? Your answer...

More compatible with 68k than those others.

Once you move to a REAL (not faked) 64-bit platform (Amiga-like, of course), you lose compatibility with existing 32-bit applications (68K & PowerPCs), and here having the same endianess doesn't help at all.
Quote:
+More powerfull than 68k.
+slower than x64
+component prices are the ~same

((PPC SoC might be simpler+cheaper to use for SBC projects than x64, might offer different things than ARM SoC))

x64 is always cheaper than PowerPC: economies of scale...

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 19-Aug-2015 15:40:28
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10736
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Quote:
I often read such comments... why bother with legacy? Then most existing native software would not run anymore and who will rewrite it (if sources are available at all) or create new? And here I mean PPC native software (not the 68k)


True, if things move to quickly then third-party developer won't be able to keep up. but it won't hurt having bit faster development phase, there is lot to be done, you don't need to start with braking eggs.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 19-Aug-2015 at 03:41 PM.

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KimmoK 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 20-Aug-2015 7:34:01
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5057
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@cdimauro

>Once you move to a REAL (not faked) 64-bit platform (Amiga-like, of course), you lose compatibility with existing 32-bit applications

So, windows is a fake 64bit platform. (as an example)

> (68K & PowerPCs), and here having the same endianess doesn't help at all.

But I think suffling data bit's around always generate small overhead.


Anyway. I'm not saying "same endianess" is important. Not at all.


>x64 is always cheaper than PowerPC: economies of scale...

Yes, when you compare mainstream motherboards vs current niche motherboards.

I'm not against any x64 "Amiga", but so far I do not see any way to do it cheaper vs how PPC system can be made, therefore slightly futile vs our main problems that are in SW.

((x64 would just be more modern in performance))

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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KimmoK 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 20-Aug-2015 7:48:19
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5057
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@OlafS25

>you mean amiga users are comforted to underpowered

Underpowered for what?

>and overprized amigas

I do not see x64 as the solution to get system price down.

>most people outside with no amiga roots do not care about how it compares to 68k and you still have emulation

Right. Then I sell them 7Mhz 68k.

>It would be a hard sell outside the existing community

Sanity check here, please.

It requires a lot to sell AmigaOS system outside existing community, CPU does not matter at all. 100Ghz CPU with AmigaOS for EUR300 would anyway be hard to sell outside existing community.

On local shops I see computers sold with 1....4Ghz CPUs. 4Ghz AMD would be only one sold if performance+price were the only factors.

Some even buy 2x more expensive Apple with weaker CPU!!! Go figure.


**********
So, IMO, EfikaPPC2 for EUR200 + AOS4 is ~exactly as hard to sell to outside as Efikax64 for EUR200 + AOS4.
**********


(signing off, need to continue my work on 1,3 and 1,6 Ghz x64 products ....)

Last edited by KimmoK on 20-Aug-2015 at 07:51 AM.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
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cdimauro 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 20-Aug-2015 9:20:17
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 1832
From: Germany

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:
@cdimauro

>Once you move to a REAL (not faked) 64-bit platform (Amiga-like, of course), you lose compatibility with existing 32-bit applications

So, windows is a fake 64bit platform. (as an example)

Windows is NOT an Amiga-like o.s....
Quote:
> (68K & PowerPCs), and here having the same endianess doesn't help at all.

But I think suffling data bit's around always generate small overhead.

Yes, but we have out-of-order processors nowadays which help a lot here.
Quote:
Anyway. I'm not saying "same endianess" is important. Not at all.

The problem here is not the endianess. If you go for a 64-bit o.s. (and applications, of course), even using the same endianess cannot help in any way to let the old 32-bit apps (68K & PowerPC) run on it, except with the usual emulation & sandbox approach.
Quote:
>x64 is always cheaper than PowerPC: economies of scale...

Yes, when you compare mainstream motherboards vs current niche motherboards.

That's normal: economies of scale, in fact.
Quote:
I'm not against any x64 "Amiga", but so far I do not see any way to do it cheaper vs how PPC system can be made, therefore slightly futile vs our main problems that are in SW.

A 64-bit PowerPC cannot be used exactly like an x64, if you want an Amiga/like 64 bit o.s. AND you wish to transparently run 32-bit apps on it.
Quote:
((x64 would just be more modern in performance))

And cheap. And with a better ecosystem. And draw less power. And have way better support...

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:
@OlafS25

>you mean amiga users are comforted to underpowered

Underpowered for what?

Take a complex web page, like Facebook, GMail, etc., and take a look at how your system performs.
Quote:
>and overprized amigas

I do not see x64 as the solution to get system price down.

We already discussed about prices in the past. I also reported some prices in another thread, when I was discussing with Dandy (but here you didn't replied).

"Strangly", you continue to insist even when the evidence confutes you.

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OlafS25 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 20-Aug-2015 9:46:30
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5098
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

the apple fans are from another star

comparable to some amiga fans

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KimmoK 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 20-Aug-2015 11:16:52
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5057
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@cdimauro

>>>Once you move to a REAL (not faked) 64-bit platform (Amiga-like, of course), you lose compatibility with existing 32-bit applications
>>So, windows is a fake 64bit platform. (as an example)
>Windows is NOT an Amiga-like o.s....

Ok then.
What things of "Amiga-like" I would loose if I move to 64bit?

Responsiveness? Speed? Looks? Directory structure? What?

>>> (68K & PowerPCs), and here having the same endianess doesn't help at all.
>>But I think suffling data bit's around always generate small overhead.
>Yes, but we have out-of-order processors nowadays which help a lot here.

Exactly what I meant.

>>>x64 is always cheaper than PowerPC: economies of scale...
>>Yes, when you compare mainstream motherboards vs current niche motherboards.
>That's normal: economies of scale, in fact.

Amiga does not sell more even if it's x64.
Custom x86 face same realities as custom PPC + more compettion perhaps.
Things change a little if some off-the-self motherboard is used.
(still it will be more expensive than EfikaPPC was, just more powerfull)

>>((x64 would just be more modern in performance))
>And cheap.

Only more powerfull per EUR.
Not cheaper per custom built machine.

>And with a better ecosystem.

???? Amiga niche would be amiga niche still.

>And draw less power.

NOT TRUE.

>And have way better support...

NOT TRUE.

>Take a complex web page, like Facebook, GMail, etc., and take a look at how your system performs.

I need the SW first.
(+ JIT for JAVA)

Currently 667Mhz (PPC440) seems to do most of the web usage.
600Mhz + JIT (ARM) does it even better.

To People with x1000:
is X1000 caliber PPC computer too slow for firefox & web on Linux?

>>I do not see x64 as the solution to get system price down.
>We already discussed about prices in the past. I also reported some prices in another thread, when I was discussing with Dandy (but here you didn't replied).

I might have missed that. Last time I checked I found same prices for low end PPC SoC and for low end x86 SoC.

For example in EUR200 motherboard+CPU BOM, PPC CPU is around 30%.

Last edited by KimmoK on 20-Aug-2015 at 11:23 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 20-Aug-2015 at 11:20 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 20-Aug-2015 at 11:19 AM.

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//
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OlafS25 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 20-Aug-2015 11:38:45
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5098
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

custom hardware is always more expensive than mass produced standard hardware. Custom X64 is also more expensive than mass produced standard X64 hardware. So the only sane idea to me today would be using existing hardware and adapt the OS to it.

you always add the part prices but you must develop a mainboard from it (including testing) what costs a lot of money that has to be covered by (low) sales.

is there any ready to use PPC board that is suited for Desktops? When I looked last time I only found embedded boards

Last edited by OlafS25 on 20-Aug-2015 at 11:43 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 20-Aug-2015 12:49:14
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5098
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

interesting read from geit about Morphos after ISA change but same would certainly be true for AmigaOS when introducing radical improvements like 64bit and MP:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9204&forum=11&start=14

SMP, memory protection, 64Bit support, virtual memory will come with a price. Loosing the compatibly to all thirdparty PPC and all 68K applications, which aren´t in development anymore. It also will split the user/market once again. So a step like this should be made wise and preferable only once. And that is the point, where MorphOS swaps hardware. Such opportunity must also be used to drop insane and old crap the OS is filled with to keep it compatible with old Amiga and the old AmigaAPI simply is stupid in many ways.

In the result we would get a totally incompatible MorphOS system that is as fast as possible, shiny and clean for the future, but has no applications beside the ones provided by MorphOS developers itself.


there is still my question where new software then comes from. Nice proof of concept, but in worst case just running 68k applications in UAE

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cdimauro 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 20-Aug-2015 14:58:04
#39 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 1832
From: Germany

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:
@cdimauro

>>>Once you move to a REAL (not faked) 64-bit platform (Amiga-like, of course), you lose compatibility with existing 32-bit applications
>>So, windows is a fake 64bit platform. (as an example)
>Windows is NOT an Amiga-like o.s....

Ok then.
What things of "Amiga-like" I would loose if I move to 64bit?

Responsiveness? Speed? Looks? Directory structure? What?

Nothing if you leave the o.s. exactly with the same APIs and structures (description).

The "only" problem is that the structures change in size, because at least the doubling of pointer size. So, a 32-bit app isn't able to use the 64-bit structures, and not even access them (because they can be located on >4GB memory).
Quote:
>>>x64 is always cheaper than PowerPC: economies of scale...
>>Yes, when you compare mainstream motherboards vs current niche motherboards.
>That's normal: economies of scale, in fact.

Amiga does not sell more even if it's x64.
Custom x86 face same realities as custom PPC + more compettion perhaps.

Competition? With Intel which as 90% of the x86 market?
Quote:
>>((x64 would just be more modern in performance))
>And cheap.

Only more powerfull per EUR.
Not cheaper per custom built machine.

What kind of custom stuff do you talk about?
Quote:
>And with a better ecosystem.

???? Amiga niche would be amiga niche still.

Sure, but actually if I buy an x86 CPU I have everything which I need, included a GPU (even good one with the high-end models). In fact, my PC case is empty, except for the memory and SATA which I've attached.
Quote:
>And draw less power.

NOT TRUE.

How long is it that you don't take a look at the x86 world? Never eared of BayTrail, Core-M? Not counting the latest low-power Xeons.
Quote:
>And have way better support...

NOT TRUE.

Are you kidding? Even if you need to work on PowerPCs, usually SDKs are based on PC (using Windows or Linux). And, of course, there are ZILLIONS of software for the PC.
Quote:
>Take a complex web page, like Facebook, GMail, etc., and take a look at how your system performs.

I need the SW first.
(+ JIT for JAVA)

Currently 667Mhz (PPC440) seems to do most of the web usage.
600Mhz + JIT (ARM) does it even better.

Try Facebook and GMail, please. Then we can talk again...
Quote:
>>I do not see x64 as the solution to get system price down.
>We already discussed about prices in the past. I also reported some prices in another thread, when I was discussing with Dandy (but here you didn't replied).

I might have missed that. Last time I checked I found same prices for low end PPC SoC and for low end x86 SoC.

For example in EUR200 motherboard+CPU BOM, PPC CPU is around 30%.

What kind of PowerPC CPU? The last time I reported precise PC SoCs / complete systems. Can you report a complete BOM for your PowerPC solution?

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cdimauro 
Re: Annual Check-in
Posted on 20-Aug-2015 15:00:23
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 1832
From: Germany

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

interesting read from geit about Morphos after ISA change but same would certainly be true for AmigaOS when introducing radical improvements like 64bit and MP:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9204&forum=11&start=14

SMP, memory protection, 64Bit support, virtual memory will come with a price. Loosing the compatibly to all thirdparty PPC and all 68K applications, which aren´t in development anymore. It also will split the user/market once again. So a step like this should be made wise and preferable only once. And that is the point, where MorphOS swaps hardware. Such opportunity must also be used to drop insane and old crap the OS is filled with to keep it compatible with old Amiga and the old AmigaAPI simply is stupid in many ways.

Stupid? The Amiga APIs? This guy should be completely crazy. According to the o.s. guru pavlor, the Amiga o.s. was good by design.

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