@Vistaus

"are there really no original Amiga devs/engineers left behind the scenes"

Olaf Barthel is with Amiga since late 90's.
http://obligement.free.fr/articles_traduction/itwbarthel_en.php

Not sure about any other.

(For old HW devs to become interested, we must have something cool cooking, IIRC, David Haynie was interested in some FPGA developments around Amiga.)

Last edited by KimmoK on 02-Jul-2014 at 12:04 PM.

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@KimmoK

some of the veterans are in the AmigaOS team (I do not know how active) or the MorphOS team. Then as example Thomas Richter is active, Chris Hodge (Poseidon) to name two. Others are active (or were till recently) but not amiga-related like Mr. Sassenrath (Rebol) or Mark Sibly (Blitzbasic).

@Vistaus

You can say that you use Amiga, generally. But if someone asks you what machine you have, you same Sam460 (or whatever), not Amiga 7000 or whatever it would be equivalent to if Commodore had not died.

If people ask me, I say I use "an Amiga" or just "Amiga", or maybe "AmigaOS" if the OS is in question. But when someone asks me what machine I have, I obviously say AmigaOne X1000, not Amiga 10000 or whatever it might have been called if Commodore had made it.

The same goes (went?) when I used the A1200 with PPC. I said I used "Amiga". But when people said what HW, I could not say simply Amiga1200, because that implies 68020 CPU and AGA graphics. I had to say "maxxed out A1200 with PPC and BVision" otherwise it would not be correct. Btw. That maxxed out A1200 had more in common with an AmigaNG than a clean empty Amiga1200. It could not run classic games or my faviourite tracker music program because the gfx card could not display AGA banging programs and the Prelude sound card could not play the music of the Paula-banging tracker. Sometimes even the 060 CPU itself made it crash because it wasn't compatible.

@paolone

The Amiga as we knew it is dead.
The Amiga as we know it is alive.

For me Amiga lives in the form of AmigaOS 4 running on AmigaOne X1000 HW.

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@NutsAboutAmiga


Quote:

what features are we taking about here?

At a glance:

A\BOX Specifications

The heart of the A/BOX is the system controller: CAIPIRINHA. The corner-stones of the CAIPIRINA design is:
128-bit high performance UMA (Unified Memory Architecture) controller, using fast 100MHz SDRAMs (max 1.6 GB/s)
64-bit processor bus with a maximum clock rate of 100 MHz
Two 24-bit video DMA units with freely addressable access, with integrated 24/-bit video DAC's
Four 16-bit audio outputs, 44.1 KHz with any number of virtual tracks, sample output, FM and AM synthesis
Video-in ports for 2 independent video inputs in Y/UV 4:2:2 quality
...

Graphical hardware support:
Hardware support for multimedia(MPEG)
Hardware support for 3D functions
1600x1200 pixels at 24-bit color depth at a refresh rate of 75Hz
Smooth scroll virual screens limited only by memory
Hardware implementation for image and video effects
Two video output. One high-performance 220 MHz video output (1600x1280) and one 135 MHz Genlock-capable 24 bit video output (PAL/NTSC or S-VHS). Both video outputs can be used in parallel and the 135 MHz video output can be superimposed as a window in the 220 MHz display.
2 independent video input porst in Y/UV 4:2:2 quality

Audio hardware:
Four 16-bits audio outputs, 44.1KHz (unlimited number of tracks), sample output, FM and AM synthesis.
Audio inputs in 16-bit stereo 44.1KHz.
Real-time generation and mixing of various audio tracks in any random format without making demands on the processor.
Support for various sound effects.

From:
http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/aboxspec.html

Quote:

The hardware can do that, ReadionHD has hardware acceleration for video decoding.

Sure but hardware acceleration is useless if no one is using it.

The audio standards above which should be lame by now aren't even met by OS4 today.

In any case, the A/BOX never came out, so I suppose this is all speculation. Except when it lost the cool hardware features and ended up turning into MorphOS. Later running on the Pegasos which was boring and simple compared to he above specs.

@Hypex

You did not answer my question, what you listed is mostly obsolete stuff.

Way do you want 16bit audio when X1000 support 32bit?
Way do you want 24bit graphics when X1000 support 32bit?
Only 1.6 GB/s ram way? X1000 supports DDR2 memory, DD2 has peek transferee rate from 3.12Gb/s to 8.33Gb/s.

video output (PAL/NTSC or S-VHS).

Way its obsolete, who uses S-VHS today? DVI/HDMI is the standard, and PAL/NTSC who uses that?

sample output, FM and AM synthesis

Are you mad, that's illegal in most countries, you need a licence to broadcast AM/FM.
Fun fact FM is going to be turned off in Norway, people living in Norway will need to buy DAB radios.

Video-in ports for 2 independent video inputs in Y/UV 4:2:2 quality

driver issue ask hans.

While you wait buy a TV card.

http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?post_id=69396

Hardware support for multimedia(MPEG)

driver issue ask hans.

Hardware support for 3D functions

Driver issue ask Hyperion.

Two video output

You can do that, if you have space for more then one graphic card.

Real-time generation and mixing of various audio tracks in any random format without making demands on the processor.

Some really old sound cards have sound fonts, I don't know any one use that anymore.

You really don't notice mp3 decoding and mixing on the CPU on X1000.

Support for various sound effects

I'm shore XMOS can do that, pity easy.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Jul-2014 at 02:03 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Jul-2014 at 01:57 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jul-2014 at 07:19 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jul-2014 at 07:18 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jul-2014 at 07:16 PM.

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Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: Are you mad, that's illegal in most countries, you need a licence to broadcast AM/FM. Fun fact FM is going to be turned off in Norway, people living in Norway will need to buy DAB radios.

Hypex probably isn't referring to radio signals, but to audio generation.

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: You can do that, if you have space for more then one graphic card.

Or just use a video card with multiple outputs. These have existed for years. The Geforce 5500 in my old Pentium 3 has that.

Last edited by Thorham on 10-Jul-2014 at 07:52 PM.

@NutsAboutAmiga

FM synthesis isn't what you seem to think. I suggest checking with google before jumping into salad with both feet.

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@olegil

Does it matter?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_modulation

Quote:

FM is also used at audio frequencies to synthesize sound. This technique, known as FM synthesis, was popularized by early digital synthesizers and became a standard feature in several generations of personal computer sound cards.

So this was a feature that was popular in old sound cards, but is not anymore, so in other words, so all has to do is get old ISA to PCI adapter. and write a driver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravis_Ultrasound

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jul-2014 at 10:39 PM.

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@Thorham

Quote:

Or just use a video card with multiple outputs. These have existed for years. The Geforce 5500 in my old Pentium 3 has that.

Again thats a driver issue, I have graphic card here with different video outputs, HDMI and DVI, I can use any of video output, when Picasso96 was created there where no graphic cards with more then one video output, I guess some thing in Intuition needs to be rewritten.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Jul-2014 at 02:18 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

You did not answer my question, what you listed is mostly obsolete stuff.

Actually I think I did. This is the machine I was thinking about. And so what if it looks obsolete? So does a Video Toaster and yet it could easily beat any Zorro RTG card for video editing.

Quote:

Way do you want 16bit audio when X1000 support 32bit? Way do you want 24bit graphics when X1000 support 32bit?

Why are you bringing up the X1000? Is the X1000 ten years ahead of an AGA Amiga? In the context I am speaking about to which you quoted is an AmigaOne-XE.

I want 16-bit audio because AGA only has 8-bit. And 32-bit graphics is still 24-bit RGB, it just has an alpha channel on top. And even that's still way obsolete compared to the standard laid down in SetRGB32().

Quote:

DVI/HDMI is the standard, and PAL/NTSC who uses that?

I do on my TV right now.

But why does it matter if that's obsolete? I'm talking 1996 here.

Quote:

Are you mad, that's illegal in most countries, you need a licence to broadcast AM/FM.

Oh that's classic man! I'm voting for you in the AmigaWorld Top Ten Classic Comments 2014!

Now, why is is illegal to use AM/FM synthesis on sound data, and broadcast it out of the speakers?

In fact, Paula could do AM/FM synthesis. Possibly used by OctaMED for synthsounds.

Quote:

Driver issue ask

So in effect it doesn't exist. This would have had the hardware onboard and supported.

Quote:

You can do that, if you have space for more then one graphic card.

Another plug in card that needs driver support against built in hardware.

Quote:

Some really old sound cards have sound fonts, I don't know people use that anymore.

Do you use samples?

Quote:

You really don't notice mp3 decoding and mixing on the CPU on X1000.

Thanks to AHI the mixing is flawed and isn't done properly if it doesn't lock the audio out. I doubt even AHI using OctaMED style mixing routines would be much better than a 16-bit virtually unlimited audio hardware mixer.

Quote:

I'm shore XMOS can do that, pity easy.

An external chip needed to do sound effects the sound card should be doing? Please!

Quote:

So this was a feature that was popular in old sound cards, but is not anymore, so in other words, so all has to do is get old ISA to PCI adapter. and write a driver.

Get an old ISA card to do what an Amiga can do? No way! Either way, AM and FM is still relevant today. When an Amiga plays a module, some form of AM and FM synthesis is used. AM controls volume, FM controls pitch; that's another way of looking at it.

Quote:

Hypex wrote: And even that's still way obsolete compared to the standard laid down in SetRGB32().

Yeah, but 32 bits per color channel isn't really useful, is it? It's not as if you can actually see that many shades per channel.

Quote:

Hypex wrote: When an Amiga plays a module, some form of AM and FM synthesis is used. AM controls volume, FM controls pitch; that's another way of looking at it.

Aren't samples on the Amiga pulse code modulation?

Last edited by Thorham on 11-Jul-2014 at 03:29 PM.
Last edited by Thorham on 11-Jul-2014 at 03:28 PM.

@Thorham

Quote:

Yeah, but 32 bits per color channel isn't really useful, is it?

No, beacuse neither AGA nor any RTG card supported it. Infact it was a ridiculous thing to add. I don't know why Commodore did it. The logical thing would be to do a SetRGB8() and related functions. All they did was create a PITA requiring programmers to shift each RGB element 24-bits to the left which the OS then shifted back 24-bits to the right. What was the point of that!?

Sure, or'ing all the bytes together was a neat trick to convert 8-bit RGB to 32-bit RGB. But all it did was make three RGB bytes take up three long words. I don't even know of any hardware today that had a 192-bit or 256-bit framebuffer, It beggars belief!

Quote:

Aren't samples on the Amiga pulse code modulation?

In a nutshell, yes. But they are coded as sign numbers. So you don't see or interact directly with the PCM process. That is left up to the ADC for a sampler or the DAC for Paula.

Last edited by Hypex on 12-Jul-2014 at 01:21 PM.

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote: @Thorham Quote: Yeah, but 32 bits per color channel isn't really useful, is it? No, beacuse neither AGA nor any RTG card supported it. Infact it was a ridiculous thing to add. I don't know why Commodore did it. The logical thing would be to do a SetRGB8() and related functions. All they did was create a PITA requiring programmers to shift each RGB element 24-bit to the left which the OS then shifted back 24-bits to the right. What was the point of that!?

Actually, it does make sense in the future if you want to, or become able to, make a display that can cover the full range of light in nature, from pitch black cole mine (no LCD can even do a normal night sky today) to the sun-bright glittering of sea water on a sunny day.

This has annoyed me for some time, but mostly for photos, that it is impossible to capture the glitter in snow, or in rocks at the sea, or the brightness o the sun itself. A TV can not become brighter than white, and is therefore utterly incapable of displaying any form of light (like any sun reflections in water or snow).

Most importantly; IF we get a display that can display the dynamic range from pitch black cole mine to the brightness of the sun (yes, you would need serious sunglasses in the living room ), we need way more than 8-bit of intensity in each color.

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Quote:

Deniil715 Most importantly; IF we get a display that can display the dynamic range from pitch black cole mine to the brightness of the sun (yes, you would need serious sunglasses in the living room ), we need way more than 8-bit of intensity in each color.

You still wouldn't need 32 bits per channel. 16 bits is probably already more than enough. I say that more colors than just red, green and blue is more interesting than ranges you can't see completely.

@Deniil715

Quote:

Actually, it does make sense in the future if you want to, or become able to, make a display that can cover the full range of light in nature, from pitch black cole mine (

Well in context it is the future now. Given it was about 1992 when Commodore were putting those 32-bit RGB routines in AmigaOS. Perhaps they knew something I didn't. Were they or some other RTG company designing an Amiga graphics chipset with a 192-bit RGB triplet?

But, can the increased resolution really help here? I mean, we go from $00 and $ff to $00000000 and $ffffffff. You start at the same place and end up at the same place! The only difference is in between.

Quote:

This has annoyed me for some time, but mostly for photos, that it is impossible to capture the glitter in snow, or in rocks at the sea, or the brightness o the sun itself.

I always wondered how computers (I mean the Amiga) could display silvers on screen. I could never figure it out using RGB sliders. But somehow that worked.

Last edited by Hypex on 12-Jul-2014 at 04:49 PM.

@Hypex

Quote:

All they did was create a PITA requiring programmers to shift each RGB element 24-bits to the left which the OS then shifted back 24-bits to the right. What was the point of that!?

You don't shift 24 bits to the right or you discard resolution you multiply by 0x01010101 so that 0xCE becomes 0xCECECECE.

As to why, a mixture of future proofing and efficiency I'd expect. If you extending an API to allow for the possibilty of more colours why stop at an inefficient size like 8bits or 16bits, 32bits can be manipulated for faster in general. When this chnage was added we were moving from memory bound to CPU bound, choosing a limit type (UBYTE) to save memory at the expense of speed or range made no sense.

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@Hypex

Quote:

In a nutshell, yes. But they are coded as sign numbers. So you don't see or interact directly with the PCM process. That is left up to the ADC for a sampler or the DAC for Paula.

The numbers are the pulse codes so yes you do interact with the PCM.

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@Deniil715

Quote:

Actually, it does make sense in the future if you want to, or become able to, make a display that can cover the full range of light in nature, from pitch black cole mine (no LCD can even do a normal night sky today) to the sun-bright glittering of sea water on a sunny day. This has annoyed me for some time, but mostly for photos, that it is impossible to capture the glitter in snow, or in rocks at the sea, or the brightness o the sun itself.

This is the challenge that has been presented to artists, photographers and any other prodcuer of visuall images.
There two factors dynamic range and colour resolution, in painted/ printed media dynamic range is limited by the brightness of your white and darkness of your black. They are passive so rely on refelction. The dynamic range of paint is quite limited by the colour resolution (number of colours available) is very high, so the great masters painters oull trick with colour placement to produce the illusion of brightness.


Quote:

A TV can not become brighter than white, and is therefore utterly incapable of displaying any form of light (like any sun reflections in water or snow).

You have that backwards somewhat, TV be it LCD or CRT is active it *emits* light, there fore it can be a bright as you like (within reason) what it more difficult is the darks, most TV were darkish grey (early ones not so dark either). A monitor gives far higher dynamic range than a painting. Colour tricks can still be used to give the ilusion of range, but that's more tricky in a moving image.

Quote:

Most importantly; IF we get a display that can display the dynamic range from pitch black cole mine to the brightness of the sun (yes, you would need serious sunglasses in the living room ), we need way more than 8-bit of intensity in each color.

HD monitors system do exist, though not quite up to what you are describing . Bear in mind that an image truly as bright as the sun will burn your eyes out!

Here's a product link:

Clearly a bit hyped but still proof that the things do exist.

http://www.sim2.com/HDR/

What I can't find at the moment is a fantasic article on the subject I read a few years back (whilst porting EXR for blender) it details the effective dynamic ranges of a lot of different media.

Last edited by broadblues on 12-Jul-2014 at 05:10 PM.

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@broadblues

Quote:

You don't shift 24 bits to the right or you discard resolution you multiply by 0x01010101

In context that desn't make sense. Thee OS has to convert the 32-bit value back to an 8-bit value. Multiplying by 0x01010101 isn't going to do that. So, as I said, the OS has to shift it right 24-bits.

And then it has to divide it again into nibbles in the case of AGA.

Discarding resolution doesn't matter as it isn't used in the first place. AGA doesn't have 32-bit RGB values.

Quote:

If you extending an API to allow for the possibilty of more colours why stop at an inefficient size like 8bits or 16bits

Because the hardware doesn't support it. And it looks confusing. One step at a time is fine.

Quote:

choosing a limit type (UBYTE) to save memory at the expense of speed or range made no sense.

Making it a full 32-bit value incurred a speed loss. In any case there was still no need to multiply it up; an 8-bit RGB value could easily have fitted into a long word, as much as three 8-bit values could have fit into three long words.

@Hypex

Quote:

In context that desn't make sense. Thee OS has to convert the 32-bit value back to an 8-bit value. Multiplying by 0x01010101 isn't going to do that. So, as I said, the OS has to shift it right 24-bits.

Sorry that wan't an optinion it was a statement of fact.

To convert a 8bit colour number to a 32 bit you *must* multiply by 0x01010101

Not doing so loses information. Wtch the pretty numbers;

EF
× 101 0101
= efefefef
÷ 101 0101
= ef

ef000000
÷ 101 0101
= ee

oops


You have no idea how the OS is processing that number and you can make no assumptions about it. Even if your assumption was valid for one piece of hardware it might be different for a later one, especially one using more that 8 bits per channel, were it to arrive.

Quote:

And then it has to divide it again into nibbles in the case of AGA.

AGA had 8 bits per colour colur channel did it not?

Quote:

Discarding resolution doesn't matter as it isn't used in the first place. AGA doesn't have 32-bit RGB values.

As I just demonstrated you discard 1 point of range you maximum colour is now 254, and the point again just because AGA didn't have it doesn't mean other system were or will be limited.

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