Spin off from this thread:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=38068&forum=47&start=80&viewmode=flat&order=0

@pavlor
Quote:

3372 applications (etc.) on OS4depot.

Most of packages at OS4 depot are not GUI applications at all. Icon sets, skins, datatypes, libraries, docs, command line tools, screenblankers etc dont have GUI at all. There are also numerous SDL and cygwin ports.

Last edited by itix on 26-Aug-2013 at 01:41 PM.

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@itix

ReAction is only available officially for AmigaOS (3.9. and PPC). I was told it also works on MOS by copying files. On AROS 68k works ClassAct, so ClassAct is available on AROS? And as soon MOS is ported to another hardware this will not work anymore. So only secure cross-platform option for GUI is at the moment using MUI.

And regarding number of applications ... At least on Aminet 68k applications with ReAction were much more seldom than MUI applications (I did not look at AmigaOS applications so I do not know there).

@itix

I like to point you to a tread over at Amigans.

http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6025&forum=38

Brickly what has happened is that Alfkil has created a competition, and prize for developer whit the most points, so there has been recently been a Explosion of QT applications coming.

Some good, some not so good.

As for reaction, I think its about as popular as MUI on AmigaOS4.
There are a lot of older applications that use MUI, its not so easy to get count of what is MUI and what is not, you will need to download every application and see what it is.

SDL I don't know about any programs that use it, SDL is something games use, I don't see how its really relevent in this context.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Aug-2013 at 02:25 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Aug-2013 at 02:24 PM.

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@itix

This whole MUI v Reaction V Qt et al thng is pointless, when I was simply a user I don't remebember ever choosing an app other another because of it's toolkit, and there have been many over the years.

For me I chose AWeb as my favourite browser in the old days, not because it used ClassAct or later Reaction, but because it had the really powerful scripting facilities (run rexx and dos from links) that made it the GUI for many cover CD's

Later when I took on the AWeb open source project is fostered my preference for Reaction, as I had learn't how to use it. Reaction has advance considerably from ClassAct over the years, I find it a powerful and easy toolkit to work with. It does help being a AmigaOS 4 beta tester as I can bring bugs to the attention of developers and get them fixed. Documentation as ever could be improved. Also Reaction is simply BOOPSI so you can use any BOOPSI gadget in a reaction GUI, not just the official toolkit ones.

The Qt thing is alittle different, it's real benefit would be to enable porting of larger applications using Qt, many of the small utilities being ported to test the port would be better reimplmented in Reaction or MUI (becuaes the Qt overhead is ridiculous for "you got mail" docky for example) but they do function as a tests of the Qt port.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

SDL I don't know about any programs that use it, SDL is something games use, its I don't see how its really relevent in this context.

It is relevant when some of those 3373 applications are actually games. And of course there are Reaction and MUI based games, too.

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@itix

QT support a number of platforms, Windows, Linux, MacOS, Mobile devices.
MUI only supports AmigaOS, MorphOS and AROS.
Reaction is AmigaOS4.

Reaction

Positive points:
* because it looks good
* because its .library based, and not sheard object based
* no register key needed
* you don't need extra classes to make it work.

Negative points:
* Only AmigaOS4 (not a big problem if thats what you want)
* maybe a bit slower then MUI.
* Its abit dated compared whit QT

MUI

Positive points:
* Legacy works on many platforms.
* Many classes, more then reaction.
* because its .library based, and not sheard object based
* Its where customizable once you have a MUI key.

Negative points:
* You need a registration key.
* many programs don't work, because you need xyz MUI class from Aminet.
* Its abit dated compared whit QT

QT

Positive points:
* Its a modern GUI toolkit, it has calender, web browser classes, and many advanced GUI elements, that MUI and Reaction simply do not have.
* Its hardware accelerated
* It looks nice
* It supports many platforms so if you want a portable program, this what you should write it for.
* You can drag menus and toolbars out windows and drag the GUI elelments back into the window at location you like.

Negative points:
* It sheard object based.
* It does not support AROS and MorphsOS (you have MUI for that, not big problem)
* A bit beta right now it will improve.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Aug-2013 at 02:35 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Aug-2013 at 02:20 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Aug-2013 at 02:15 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Good summarize...

Every choice has its strength and weaknesses and it all depends what you want to do and on which OS

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Negative points: * maybe a bit slower then MUI.

This is highly subjective and depnds on the gadgets in the GUI, listbrowser for sure are often faster on MUI, but rendering the window as a whole seem slower in MUI apps to me, swings and roundabouts.

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Here is the reason why I prefer MUI over ReAction:

FileX
Garshneblanker
MUIRoyale (MUI plugin for Hollywood)
mathX
MUIbase
MUIBuilder
Scalos
Scout
SimpleMail
YAM
ZuneFIG
ScreenRecorder

Most available open source Amiga programs are written in MUI. Unfortunately, MUI itself isn't part of that list.

Last edited by Mazze on 26-Aug-2013 at 02:35 PM.

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@broadblues

I just that when I resize reaction window of Excalibur prefs or Basilisk it does seam a bit slow to me,
Its just simple buttons and string gadgets. You might be right that depends on the gadgets used, but anyway I expect it be more optimized over time.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Aug-2013 at 02:34 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Aug-2013 at 02:30 PM.

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Apart from technical merits, i think nobody in his sane mind would rely on a 3rd party shareware toolkit that you don't have control on, for a foundamental part of an OS. Would you? It would be a primer on any OS, i believe.

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@broadblues

Quote:

Later when I took on the AWeb open source project is fostered my preference for Reaction, as I had learn't how to use it. Reaction has advance considerably from ClassAct over the years, I find it a powerful and easy toolkit to work with. It does help being a AmigaOS 4 beta tester as I can bring bugs to the attention of developers and get them fixed. Documentation as ever could be improved.

I have never written Reaction application but to me it looks it requires more effort to get working GUI written in Reaction than in MUI. I looked at AWeb sources again and it is using some custom tooltip system. And when I dig it deeper there is no hierarchy. AWeb is passing screen and MsgPort pointers to create new windows and it seems that processing GUI actions is done somewhere else. AWeb is also calling LayoutLimits() to find out actual dimensions to windows. I mean, wtf? Do you really have to go through all this low level stuff only to open some window and write even more low level code to render something into it?

I think it is the major drawback in RA.

Quote:

Also Reaction is simply BOOPSI so you can use any BOOPSI gadget in a reaction GUI, not just the official toolkit ones.

That is also possible in MUI (it is BOOPSI based but non-MUI classes use a wrapper class) but I cant imagine any good reason to do that. Maybe if you were writing Multiview replacement and wanted to use datatype objects.

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@itix

It's as easy as MUI.

Aweb most be a bad example, download the OS4 SDK its some where on the net, it comes whit exsamples.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Aug-2013 at 04:01 PM.

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@itix

Quote:

I have never written Reaction application but to me it looks it requires more effort to get working GUI written in Reaction than in MUI.

That is quite possibly true. For example, there is no application class in ReAction, and many things like program windows, online help, message ports etc. need to be created separately and put together to make the resulting GUI.

Quote:

I looked at AWeb sources again and it is using some custom tooltip system.

That is a thing of the past. Tooltips have been a built-in ReAction feature for some years now.

Quote:

it seems that processing GUI actions is done somewhere else

ReAction uses a dedicated function (method) for processing GUI events but the place is the same - the program's main event loop, i.e. same as with Intuition/GadTools GUIs.

Quote:

AWeb is also calling LayoutLimits() to find out actual dimensions to windows.

LayoutLimits() is just an auxiliary function to obtain the minimum and maximum size of a layout. Very few programs will need such information - the function is rarely used AFAIK.

Quote:

Do you really have to go through all this low level stuff only to open some window

You need to pass a screen pointer and a message port (for receiving AppMessages) to create a window object - how low level is that? Sure, the window class could be smarter and create the port automatically but it's not any lower-level than standard Intuition/GadTools programming.

Quote:

and write even more low level code to render something into it?

You can use dedicated classes to render graphics or text into the window (bitmap.image, space.gadget etc.), and of course you can always use standard graphics.library functions to draw into the window's rastport.

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@itix

Well as far as I'm concerned I think QT is one of the most important ports and steps
for AmigaOS to get more mature.

With that framework and all its helper classes
a new door to modern software development fo us was openend - GREAT !

I really look forward to seeing it becomig more materful and hopefully better integreted in the OS.

KEPP GOING ....

@Trixie

Quote:

Quote: it seems that processing GUI actions is done somewhere else ReAction uses a dedicated function (method) for processing GUI events but the place is the same - the program's main event loop, i.e. same as with Intuition/GadTools GUIs.

That is very bad. It is bad because functionality is scattered across source code. They way it was done in Intuition/GadTools applications is not good coding style.

Quote:

Quote: Do you really have to go through all this low level stuff only to open some window You need to pass a screen pointer and a message port (for receiving AppMessages) to create a window object - how low level is that? Sure, the window class could be smarter and create the port automatically but it's not any lower-level than standard Intuition/GadTools programming.

Anything that deals with plain Intuition objects are low level. Gadgets, windows, screens or IDCMP ports. When I am dealing with GUI events I am not interested how Intuition deals it in low level. I am only interested to know when button is pressed i.e. I want events.

They way Intuition or GadTools applications are constructed are very low level.

Last edited by itix on 26-Aug-2013 at 04:57 PM.
Last edited by itix on 26-Aug-2013 at 04:56 PM.

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@itix

Quote:

have never written Reaction application but to me it looks it requires more effort to get working GUI written in Reaction than in MUI.

Withput having writen a MUI app I can't make a fair comparison, all I xcan is I do not find it hard to get a Reaction GUI up and running.

Quote:

I looked at AWeb sources again and it is using some custom tooltip system.

AWeb is quite old remeber, many things have been updated, many things have been left as is becuase they worked.

Quote:

And when I dig it deeper there is no hierarchy.

Heirachy of what?

Quote:

AWeb is passing screen and MsgPort pointers to create new windows and it seems that processing GUI actions is done somewhere else. AWeb is also calling LayoutLimits() to find out actual dimensions to windows. I mean, wtf?

AWeb is an oddity, it's main window i an intuition window, using modern Reaction window.class this would likely be uneccessary. You could say it's a hybrid Reaction / Intuition app Isupose. It's sub windows are all true window.class winsows though and they are much easier to mamage.

Quote:

Do you really have to go through all this low level stuff only to open some window and write even more low level code to render something into it?

No, just to open windows you don't need the weird trick AWeb pulls. As to low level rendering, well how are you going build a web page from gadgets? It's not going to happen, I doubt MUI-OWB does!

As to msgport pointers and screen pointers you only need the former if you want to share one port between many windows, otherwise the window .class creates it;s own and the modern way to do screens is to pass the screenname, again another aspect of AWebs age.


Look at SketchBlock if you want to see more advance Reaction programming in a modern context.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

For me the biggets negative point of MUI is the separate development of newer versions between MOS and the rest.

Or say it otherwise most interesting GUI toolkit would be the one that will be
* current
* existing on all Amiga platforms (AmigaOS, MOS, AROS)
* developed for all platforms all together - so same version everywhere

@broadblues

Quote:

As to low level rendering, well how are you going build a web page from gadgets? I

As an afterthough, there is asense that AWeb does do exactly that, as it creates a heirarchy of pseudoboopsi objects that "render themsleves" as required. Not true boopsi gadgets, but quite similar. They are lower level than real gadgets, due to the requiremenst of rendering a aweb page.

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@fastbit66

I agree , QT is the first step, then attach scripting support so we can automate and control apps.

A DOM would help create dynamic runtime and compiletime objects so we can have software like Visual Studio with drag'n drop control objects ( window creator) on the fly.

We also do indeed need to speed test response speed, Amiga is well know for optimized speed, great memory usage and ease of use.

Its very important to know if we have 3000 GUI objects; how efficient its going to be.

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