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      /  It's time to join the forces - Part III
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AmigaBlitter 
It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 8:47:28
#1 ]
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Joined: 26-Sep-2005
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From: Unknown

I was just thinking about if the recent call for developers include could include developers coming from different OS's team.

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Fairdinkem 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 9:18:01
#2 ]
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Joined: 23-Feb-2010
Posts: 465
From: Victoria, Australia

@AmigaBlitter

It's a great dream to have but unlikely, the problem is not getting behind and supporting the operating system but in the difference of opinions pertaining to hardware choice, ie particular community members believe hyperion should have made OS4 and OS4.1 for x86 hardware, and some believe MorphOS is the true spiritual successor to the Amiga etc and because it supports superseded Mac hardware that is cheap and powerful that it has the upper hand and best road map forward , and some believe Open source is the answer an invariably believe AROS is the messiah, then there are some who believe the dream is dead so enjoy your classic whilst it still works. But then there is Natami for those that can't handle the Red vs Blue and what colour is AROS again?

I believe the community should just pick one and with one mighty synergetic effort we could achieve something great with the many talented developers we have in this community but to much water has passed under the bridge so to speak, to much has been invested into the separate ventures. MorphOS is it own entity now and deserves it's place as an OS, AROS is open source and is at the mercy of that method of development. Some people pin there hopes on Natami reviving the Amiga dream and what a mighty effort from that team but for me it is way to retro and not for the now because I want a real modern day Amiga alternative for everyday computing.

If I were to choose an OS to put the communities weight behind not saying the other efforts are not worthy my choice would be AmigaOS for a few reasons but this argument is pointless for the above mentioned reasons and my opinion is just that an opinion.

OPINIONS are like belly buttons.... we have all got one but you don't need to show us to prove it

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 9:33:13
#3 ]
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Joined: 26-Sep-2005
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From: Unknown

@Fairdinkem

Still room to join the forces. Someone should ensemble all the developers together and show the guideline for common development.

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Amigo1 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 10:29:01
#4 ]
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Joined: 24-Jun-2004
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From: Cork Ireland

@Fairdinkem

Nice put. I agree with all your points.

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OlafS25 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 11:45:44
#5 ]
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Posts: 5050
From: Unknown

@Fairdinkem

and connect the faith on the decisions of one person. I think we had this already and we all know what happened ...

i do not think that Natami is just retro, it is a start for a new series of amiga-classics and benfitting from the huge existing software-base.

Which company invests in AmigaOS? Where do new compiler, applications and games come from? The chances would have been higher if Hyperion had supported standard hardware instead to trying to sell expensive packages. But that is history.

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ChrisH 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 12:24:10
#6 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6672
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@OlafS25
It was not Hyperion who chose to make OS4 use PPC, it was Amiga Inc (around 1999 or 2000). And at the time most Amiga users would have gouged their eyes out rather than use x86 hardware. 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing...

(And sadly going x86 now would just be too difficult/expensive, without dropping compatibility with all existing PPC & possibly 68k software. And if you thought the MOS vs OS4 trolling was bad, just wait till you get "OS4x86 is not Amiga because it can't run Amiga software".)

Last edited by ChrisH on 10-May-2011 at 12:28 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 12:32:22
#7 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
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From: Unknown

@ChrisH

OS4x86 will never become reality, so we must keep on trolling Aros vs. AmigaOS or AmigaOS vs. MOS ... I think there are enough combinations available

i read a interview with one of the Frieden brothers some time ago where he defended the decision (he said that BeOS failed because of using standard hardware, I personal think it failed because of no software)

Last edited by OlafS25 on 10-May-2011 at 12:34 PM.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 12:43:50
#8 ]
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Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3269
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

It's not all about debate in wich os is better (although i like os4 more than the other), it's more about to join the forces, works together, all having in common same goals.
Think about this:

Acube as hardware developer
A-eon as hardware developer
Natami as chipset designer and chipset evolution

Amiga OS team (os design)
MorphOS team (os design and apps developent)
Aros OS team as platform explorer and open source integrations

This is my personal view

What do you think about?

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OlafS25 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 12:50:43
#9 ]
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Posts: 5050
From: Unknown

@AmigaBlitter

i think none of these will give up his own development. It would be possible to agree on common standards (f.e. USB or PCI drivers). But at least right now there seems not much interest (by the commercial OS developers). The source of Aros is open so the Natami-Team is going in this direction. Of cource it would be benefical for all platforms to have standards (f.e. you only need one driver to support all platforms), but right now this is theoretical.

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amigang 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 13:09:13
#10 ]
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Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1344
From: Cheshire, England

On the one hand its a good thing to see Amiga community offered with so much choice and I still dont get the OS4 should go 86x debate because if you feel like that then you should really just support Aros efforts, each team have got thir own ideas of where the amiga should go and it good for the end user because we get to play with each and can enjoy all if we have enough money and room for all the computers and its nice to see the different approaches to advancing the Amiga.

But on the down side its annoying as a user to see one version of the OS do things better than the other and visa verser, the slower development time (because I'm sure if they all got behind one it would be a great OS and faster development of the OS) and then their the work of developing a software/apps for the different systems and the constant in fighting about who better and this camp should do this or that. It can be annoying some times.

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kas1e 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 13:14:51
#11 ]
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Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3177
From: Russia

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

What do you think about?


I think that it will never-never happens, because of:

Most of amiga users are from 30 to 70 years . that mean that their mind in most cases already not soft, but tough. Some of them so much dislike something, that its just unpossible to be constructive (as for example i am dislike classic-retro stuff). Other ones hate aos4 heavy, and other ones dislike morphos and hate aros. I.e. really "hate", because its like question of die or life ! :) And all of them have their ideas "how to save amiga", how that and that should be.

Every OS have their problems , pluses and minuses , someone like this one, another person other OS, but trying to say for example : hey morphos developers, stop develop morphos, let's develop os4 together ! Who will do that in clear mind ? After all those 10-15 years of developing ? Who will in interest, to go from AROS and develop OS4, and meeting with all that problems about "wait for fix 2 years", not answering on mails from company and so on ? From other side, who will in interest to use AROS after aos4 and mos, when its everyday crashes, and every new changes bring new problems all the time and it will never be polished as good as aos4 and morphos (just because of opensource) ?

I.e. there is so much problems in beetwen, that i think never possible to have some working for together on OSes itself. The only way : 3d party developers, who can be friendly enough and in clear mind, to develop (or help to port) all the software to all platforms. But hoping that Ben & brothers will deal with mos-team , or most-team will works together with Natami-team, and working on one single OS - its just unpossible at all. I just imagine first meet if all of them will try to works together:

- mos-team: hey ben, ok, let's work together, but mui4 will be only on morphos
- aros-team: ok, we want work together, let's open the sources
- hyperion: ok, plz sign NDA that you will not copy/spead/works or open-source
- aros-team: opensource you freaks ! NDA suck !
- hyperion: you pricks, you stole our code ! And you (have a look at mos team) - also stole my code !
- mos-team: you all ####ing morans, and your aos4 slow-dog junk ! opengl slow and buggy, not usb2, primitive shell !
- hyperion: hey guys, calm down, ppc is the future ! let's work together somehow
- aros-team: We port aros to Zx-spectrum ! Soon will port to Nokia s360 !
- natami-team: day #2233: we can now play in SuperFrog ! (or can't?)
- 68k-retro-team: but we also can play in SuperFrog ! Only amiga make it possible !
- mos-team: ok, chill out, let's works together (but aos4 suck hard)
- hyperion: you all so ridiclus, you all just a faggers ! but let's work together (plz sign NDA)
- aros-team: but OPEN_SOURCE !
- 68k-team: how can i install workbench 2.0 on my a500 ?
- hyperion: uhm.. but maybe still together ? somehow ? or you all will be in jail because you stole the code
- everyone: die you ####s !



That is how i see all of this will happens. And there is absolutly no single chance that it will be changed. We all will die , and everything related to amiga will be in the past , and still, those alive developers (5-10) , will say together on some forum : you all .... , i am ..... , its all ..... , because ..... , only amiga !

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OlafS25 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 13:17:07
#12 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5050
From: Unknown

@amigang

the different flavors will not agree on one OS and one hardware, so it is not a realistic hope. The only realistic hope is to have common standards for drivers and for software, so it would be easier to support all platforms. Natami and Aros will merge on the long run (Aros68k). I do not know if it is possible to work together with the other vendors, because partly they seem to think it is best to reinvent the wheel, even if there are good and free alternatives.

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OldFart 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 13:47:30
#13 ]
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Joined: 12-Sep-2004
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From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@OlafS25

Quote:
The only realistic hope is to have common standards for drivers and for software, so it would be easier to support all platforms.

Which would mean that the direction of where things are heading with regard to all flavours, is unified. Which it is definitely not, due to the very nature of them different flavours. As an example: OS4 is diverging from the old, shackled OS3.x considerably, so the option as depicted by you is as realistic as any other, namely none to speak of.

OldFart

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 13:48:48
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3269
From: Unknown

@amigang

Quote:
It would be possible to agree on common standards (f.e. USB or PCI drivers).


Could be a starting point.
We have the current hardware developement, for example. A-eon is developing a motherboard that have a xmos chip. Such chip should be available as card expansion for the 440/460 samboards, imho. In this way software developed for x1000 and specifically for the xmos chip could be available for the sam series too.

Although they are two different companies, they should come along and choose same developing path (yes, different motherboard and processors, etc) not precluding a software to works on a motherboard instead of another one.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 13:49:34
#15 ]
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Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3269
From: Unknown

@kas1e

You start with the wrong assumption that none of them can start talking in positive way...

Quote:
@AmigaBlitter Quote: What do you think about? I think that it will never-never happens, because of:


Where's a will, there's a way...

Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 10-May-2011 at 01:51 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 13:55:48
#16 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5050
From: Unknown

@OldFart

USB and PCI exists on all platforms and you need drivers to use the devices. If OS4 is really leaving all roots behind, why are they claiming to be amiga (of some kind). And even if it would be possible to agree on some standards (if there is a will)

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kas1e 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 14:13:07
#17 ]
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Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3177
From: Russia

@AmiBlitter
Quote:

You start with the wrong assumption that none of them can start talking in positive way...


Even if they will talk with good mood, its does not make anything different. They all still think about their our own (and of course true) way. And everything will stops just on the main reassons, which are : aros want to be opensource, not aos4 , not morphos are not. morphos will never give mui4 for free, as well as aos4 will not open their sources too.Tteam leads of aos4 and morphos hate together pretty much. And so on and so on, sure you should know all the stuff how its now. That all a bit "dream" for sure. And even with "common" standards there is many problems as well.

Last edited by kas1e on 10-May-2011 at 02:14 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 14:17:16
#18 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5050
From: Unknown

@kas1e

standards do not neccessary mean sharing the code, so it could be possible that there are different implementations if one company/side thinks it is benefical. Of course that means higher efforts, it would be better to share code in certain areas (drivers f.e.)

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 14:32:37
#19 ]
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10589
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Quote:

USB and PCI exists on all platforms and you need drivers to use the devices.


Thats good examples.

OpenPCI despites its name is not open source its controlled by MorphOS developers who do not like to share whit any one (The product name was created before the split in the market).

USB (Poseidon) was created by Chris Hodge, he is/was part of the MorphOS development team, until recently it was closed source project, its now open source and AROS uses it. (It should be possible to port it to AmigaOS4 if someone is willing)

Because Hyperion was unable to obtain this (Classic USB/PCI) standards, they were forced make their own standards.

The solution was to Extend existing Expansion.library and add PCI support there; Expansion.library is responsible for controlling Zorro bus boards on classic AmigaOS.

Instead of Poseidon USB stack, AmigaOS uses Sirion USB stack.

AHI was successfully adapted on all platforms.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-May-2011 at 03:37 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-May-2011 at 02:35 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 10-May-2011 14:41:33
#20 ]
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Posts: 10589
From: Norway

@OlafS25

If the standard is not well defined and not agreed on, its likely its going to be incompatible.

SFS for MorphOS is not compatible whit SFS for AmigaOS4.1 for example

Well defined standards like the RFCs are supported on lots of platforms.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-May-2011 at 03:25 PM.

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