Regarding the XMOS stuff, thanks! You managed to not say -REMOVED-

Mod note: Stow the over the top, over dramatic sarcasm.

7 day ban

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@koft

I learned a lot. I think it might have interesting emulation possibilities. I'd love to have a fully functioning PC in a window, complete with legacy ports for keyboard and mouse. With connections to the CPU, you could pass data back and forth pretty transparently. Maybe that's asking too much.

I really appreciate the weekly updates. However, I agree a little with some of the grumps. Maybe it's premature to announce the existence of the X1000 so early. Is it going to cut into SAM sales? Is it going to allow too much time for negative speculation? Sometimes ignorance really is better. It sounds like there are plans to show it at some user group in July. It would be neat to have it announced and then go on sale the next day. I don't think that happens any more.

Last edited by thinkchip on 14-Mar-2010 at 03:44 AM.

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@thinkchip

Quote:

I learned a lot. I think it might have interesting emulation possibilities. I'd love to have a fully functioning PC in a window, complete with legacy ports for keyboard and mouse. With connections to the CPU, you could pass data back and forth pretty transparently. Maybe that's asking too much.

If you read the FAQ, you'll see clearly that the XMOS chip is not a computational powerhouse, and is thus not suited to emulation.

Quote:

thinkchip wrote: really appreciate the weekly updates. However, I agree a little with some of the grumps. Maybe it's premature to announce the existence of the X1000 so early. Is it going to cut into SAM sales? Is it going to allow too much time for negative speculation? Sometimes ignorance really is better. It sounds like there are plans to show it at some user group in July. It would be neat to have it announced and then go on sale the next day. I don't think that happens any more.

There's going to be both positive and negative speculation no matter what. The pessimists tend to have yell the loudest, which skews perception.

Hans

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@Thread
I think it lends itself to some interesting development potential. I wonder just how the OS is going to incorperate something like this without limiting it too much yet allowing substantial integration with the OS itself! There are going to have to be some guidelines if this is going to be an integral part of the new OS and AMIGA design.
I'm actually looking forward to the next few years of having this machine, when it is finally out.

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@thinkchip

Quote:

I'd love to have a fully functioning PC in a window

And "a PC", as in an original, 1981 IBM PC based on an 8088 with 64kB of memory is all you could possibly *approach* emulating with the XMOS chip. Because 64kB of RAM is all it's got (and that real PC had some extra video memory on its video card, so *it* actually had more than 64kB in there).

I hope you like IBM DOS 1.0....

@umisef

But wow, what a DOS it would be

Lighten up....

Darren

Trying to bring something interesting to this thread...

How does xena @ 500Mhz compare to PPC440 @ 500Mhz?

Surely PPC has the more advanced instruction set of the two.
Xena has more of the chip internal RAM.


In theory... if one puts memory expansion for xcore to the xorro slot, and uses the 3/4 of the xcore I/O for the RAM bandwidth, what kind of bandwidth could be reached?

And when 1/4 of the I/O is used to connect to CPU local bus (RapidI/O ???), what it's bandwidth?

Last edited by KimmoK on 14-Mar-2010 at 08:51 AM.

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

still no answer if X1000 CPU have have altivec or have 64 bit support.Have nobody ask for that or have they not answer ?

The xmos Chip relabeld as Xena i still cant see for what should it be usefull.I see in the spec

http://www.xmos.com/system/files/xs1-l1-links.pdf

the data can only transfer to the internal xmos memory at maximum of 122 megabyte/sec.

when see an old macmini G4 design data can transfer 10* faster.on modern PC its more faster

xmos allow only PCI speed.

there is also a warning that the XMOS links should not route close to noisy Itens as clock etc.But a desktop computer design as the X1000 have mayn noisy lines.so its possible that the real transfer rate is lower, because of transfer error.

then the XMOS must do something with the Data.
the processable Daterate drop more, because the XMOS Chip must load calc and store the data in XMOS ram.after end it must transfer to System ram or GFX Card.

I see that RAM of every xcore is ony 64 kb.here need fit code and data.its unified mem.

i dont know if the data content is sharable by other cores, but i think not.for every core you use you must transfer the data to it.

When you use a CUDA able GFX Card in a PCI Slot (no PCIe) then you see how slow all go then, because of transfer data from or to Chip.

and when you are able to Limit the GFX Card mem to 64 kb, then i think most CUDA programs do not work.

sure you can load snippets of data, but thats a hard programming task, think about compress a jpg image that is uncompressed 1 megabyte in size and the compressed size is more than 64 kb.

thats hard to program and slow.
and when you want do videocompressing you must keep at least 2 picture in ram to do motion Compensation.

So using XMOS for Videoencoding is also not usefull.
Same is when use XMOS for raytracing or rendering.

it slow all down if a scene have more as 64 kb for data.and of course xmos have no FPU.

So i cant understand wy there is so much intresting about the XMOS Chip.
But maybe somebody can tell me what this Chip can do better as the CPU.

it does not make sense when the CPU need transfer data to XMOS chip longer as the CPU need time to calculate the Data self.

sure there are dev kits for USB2, that limit the Bandwidth, but now we have USB3 and there are lots PC mainboards that support this.

And 1 USB3 connect is fast enough to transfer data to 2 XMOS chips.
ANd what application need more than 2 XMOS Chips to work usefull i dont know

Last edited by bernd_afa on 14-Mar-2010 at 08:54 AM.
Last edited by bernd_afa on 14-Mar-2010 at 08:53 AM.

@bernd_afa

Quote:

still no answer if X1000 CPU have have altivec or have 64 bit support.Have nobody ask for that or have they not answer ?

Maybe they only want to tease some people that even don´t want to buy their product, like you?

...or they hide answer for next week of FAQ...

Quote:

The xmos Chip relabeld as Xena i still cant see for what should it be usefull.

Is it really important for you?

@bernd_afa

>still no answer if X1000 CPU have have altivec or have 64 bit support.Have nobody ask for that or have they not answer ?

The NDA. Remember?

>The xmos Chip relabeld as Xena i still cant see for what should it be usefull.I see in the spec

There has been tens of examples. If you would not let your negativity to blind you, you would notice them yourself.

Some of mine are here:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=27379&forum=33

>http://www.xmos.com/system/files/xs1-l1-links.pdf
>the data can only transfer to the internal xmos memory at maximum of 122 megabyte/sec.

Thanks for the memory refresh.
So the speed is roughly the same as between PPC440 and the FPGA of the SAM.
Perhaps similar than on a CS060 accelerator or on the first Pentium.

>when see an old macmini G4 design data can transfer 10* faster.on modern PC its more faster

So what? It's not the CPU.

>xmos allow only PCI speed.

That's pretty good for a custom chip. AGA has something like 28Mb/sec. And xcore is more "intelligent". It will be interesting, even if not a killer feature.

>there is also a warning that the XMOS links should not route close to noisy Itens as clock etc.But a desktop computer design as the X1000 have mayn noisy lines.so its possible that the real transfer rate is lower, because of transfer error.

The motherboard has been designed with a company that has xcore competence, so they most likely have not done that mistake.

>then the XMOS must do something with the Data.
....
>So using XMOS for Videoencoding is also not usefull.

The bandwidth seems to be enough for things like realtime audio processing.
The CPU will have anyway ~100x more performance for video stuff.

>But maybe somebody can tell me what this Chip can do better as the CPU.

Hard realtime tasks that must not be interfered by desktop OS stuff.

>it does not make sense when the CPU need transfer data to XMOS chip longer as the CPU need time to calculate the Data self.

Right. As it has been known since the first announcement. Xcore is not for calculation acceleration. Its more for realtime control and realtime processing.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@koft

Funny, I was thinking the same thing: absolutely no new or useful information at all. Just "The chip is cheap and ppl can use it for whatever they want; we won't be doing anything with it". Yay.

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@Cheese

New information to me was:
- "we have now specified the new‭ ‬500MHz variant "
-"but in terms of wiring we have roughly one quarter of Xena‭’‬s output lines connected to the CPU local bus and three quarters to the Xorro slot."

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=223100491

Just one of the countless audio applications of the XMOS chip.

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@Hans
Quote:

If you read the FAQ, you'll see clearly that the XMOS chip is not a computational powerhouse, and is thus not suited to emulation.

Would it be powerful enough to emulate just the custom chipset? This is what i hoped the XMOS could be used for.

@KimmoK Quote:

New information to me was: - "we have now specified the new 500MHz variant " -"but in terms of wiring we have roughly one quarter of Xena ? s output lines connected to the CPU local bus and three quarters to the Xorro slot."

It's kind of funny (in a sad way) that the X1000 nay-sayers can't even read what AEon write. I also don't know why they KEEP acting surprised that we don't have full disclosure of the CPU/etc, when we already know we won't get told until close to the release of the X1000.

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@KimmoK
>-"but in terms of wiring we have roughly one quarter of Xena‭’‬s output lines >connected to the CPU local bus and three quarters to the Xorro slot."

intresting news i miss , i write more optimistic(with memtransfer speed) i think they use a switch, so Xena can connect to CPU or Xorro with full wire, by set of a chipset register or its configurable

but when they have hardcode it, then you can only transfer 25% (39 megabyte)of the 156 megabyte(with xmos and 500 MHZ) with the CPU to the Xmos Chip.

ok, i understand its no planned as a Supercomputing System, and i think when a X1000 System cost 600 Eur thats good price..But 1500 Eur and maybe more is really very very much.

And for a amiga revival there need programmers that program for it, and have hope that many buy this...

and i still not see wy many need a X1000 and a xorro slot for 1500Eur and what IO Card that cant do as a PCIe Card or USB 3 Card

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@thinkchip Quote:

I agree a little with some of the grumps. Maybe it's premature to announce the existence of the X1000 so early.

And before it was announced, there were "grumps" complaining about how Hyperion hadn't announced their MAP, not to mention some grumps complaining the Sam was too slow. Well, both those groups got (partial) answers.

Sure, it would have been nice if the X1000 was ready for sale closer to the original announcement, but this is Amiga world, were everything has to be done on a (relatively) low budget. Frankly, I am just happyy that OS4 is continuing, and that we will see new hardware at some time in the future. I think some people just can't be pleased.

Last edited by ChrisH on 14-Mar-2010 at 10:23 AM.

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@bernd_afa

Quote:

bernd_afa wrote: and i still not see wy many need a X1000 and a xorro slot for 1500Eur and what IO Card that cant do as a PCIe Card or USB 3 Card

Quote:

From the FAQ: ‭ ‬It‭’‬s a cheap addition to the board,‭ ‬so this is hardly a deal-breaker as far as the AmigaOne X1000‭ ‬is concerned.‭ ‬We‭’‬re making the most powerful AmigaOne yet regardless of Xena.‭

Quote:

From the FAQ: By including Xena on the motherboard we ensure that every X1000‭ ‬owner has one,‭ ‬and that makes it a baseline feature that is safe for‭ ‬3rd parties to support.‭ ‬

tiffers

@Hyperionmp

I can see how that makes (some) sense as a standalone device.

I might even make some sense as an USB-device.

But IN a desktop-computer ???

Noone ever claimed that the XMOS-chips were completly use/pointless, just that sofar noone has come with a single plausible problem that could be solved with the chip onboard a full-size ATX motherboard ....... (and couldn't be solved with more conventional means).

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@koft

I don't know why you feel so eager to complain, nobody owes you anything, take what they give you a bit more gracefully, or show us how it can be done better by making your own motherboard!

Anybody who keeps making/asking silly statements/questions about the Xena (xcore) chip could simply go to xmos.com, download the emulator, try all the existing applications, and by then would have a pretty good understanding of what it's good for and how to create his own apps, even with half a brain...

Then by the time the X1000 comes out, instead of having wasted everyone's time and their own on the forums, they'd have a dozen of cool apps ready to share with other X1000 users...

Last edited by AlexC on 14-Mar-2010 at 11:03 AM.

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