@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro “Child process” I kind a think of as tread in AmigaOS4.1, etch task / process has their own signals, but child process is expected to have access to parent local variables. the thing missing sense of memory ownership, private memory only belongs to the parent process, and is not shared with its child processes, not sure it’s an issue, but be nice if there was something in between. But then the OS will actually need resource tracking.

The Amiga o.s is perfect in this case, because the entire o.s. works sharing everything to everyone.
Quote:

The place where AmigaOS screwed up was on network sockets because they depend on the file descriptor but can be shared but not by default. And this what breaks libc / newlib and so on. and that’s kind of stupid sense its API is on top of the that is supposed to simulate a BSD / Linux / POSIX environment. My hope is that that part will be completely rewritten in the new clib3, so it works more like a service. maybe a process per connection. so it do not depend directly on the low level Amiga API’s, that has to be keep in order for old programs to work as they should. An alternative to that be to replace bsdsocket.library with something new, that do not have this issues, and then bsdsocket.library can be emulated on top of new and better API, but that’s is easier to say then to do, but in any case it be idea to make more like Linux, so it becomes easier to port kernel modules to AmigaOS. In the sana ii API, the packet are where in efficiently copied around, it seams to me, it be more efficient sort the packed and send them off to a new owner if possible, but sure memory has to copied from network card to system memory, that can not be avoided, but at least do most efficient method, like with a DMA transfer.

You don't necessarily need to borrow something from the Unix world, as long as you provide a solution which provides a TCP/IP stack.

But for something new (and more Amiga-like), then you have to writing it on your own. And, which is even more problematic, ask developers to use/support it.

@Karlos

Quote:

I did that. It's called Amithlon. Like the Draco, it's not an Amiga, it's a compatible.

We have a new term here. AC. Turn up the heat.

I don't know if Amiga compatible would even fit a Draco. Or Amithlon even though it has minimal chipset emulation. And I'd say OS4 on AmigaOne wouldn't fit Amiga compatible either, The reason being Amiga compatibility implies some kind of hardware compatibility. Which the above three fully lack. But running the ROM goes a fair way. AmigaOS compatibility yes. Now I'm starting to sound pedantic here. Though I have always separated what is called Amiga computer from an AmigaOne since I know how they differ.

Quote:

Why does this matter? It was still awesome.

It doesn't really. Since I was joking around.

What I find interesting is Amithlon received a lot support in the day. I bet it made even a few Intel Outside Amigans turn on the flipside and embrace AMD! Lol. I find this interesting because it lacked full compatibility and couldn't run "Real Amiga" games. It was more focused on the OS with RTG and the practical side of things. I would actually called it an AmigaOS emulator. Now you contrast with today and such a configuration would be unacceptable! Now days people demand the chipset be there in any new machine or plastic product. The Vamipre could not survive without it. An Armiga would not be without it. Amiga people unfamiliar with an AmigaOne think it's pointless when you tell them it doesn't have any Amiga chipset nor direct support for Amiga hardware. This is such a contrast. When did the scene change from power Amiga users to an Amiga gamer crowd?

@Bosanac

Quote:

Bosanac wrote: @Karlos Sacrilege! Jij klassieke kankerhoer buitenlander!

Such typical myopic "it's where or to whom you were born" fundamentalist thinking. Get with the times and read the room.

I don't have to live in Den Haag or anywhere else Classic Dutch call The Netherlands. I don't have to eat oliebollies or pancakes, understand the language, hang my laundry out the window, charge people tikkies for the minutest common courtesy, refuse to work a second longer than contracted or have any connection of any kind with anyone or anything in the Netherlands or any desire to at any time.

To be Dutch is to identify as such. If you disagree, you are a bigot.

To quote the greatest Dutch thinker of all time:

"I think I am Dutch, therefore I am."

And they didn't eat oliebollies either.

Last edited by Karlos on 10-Dec-2023 at 12:24 PM.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

Was the ethernet driver finally delivered for the X1000?

I looked into this a few years ago. I could have done so sooner since I'm on the beta list but I spent time on other bugs. So apparently there was a beta driver. But they hit a bug where it became unstable and either lost packets or locked up, something to that effect, so just not even close to release. From what I recall the issue was never found so the driver was never released. This is ironic since, there is a Linux driver for the same hardware, that has worked for years. Now all I can say is there must be something wrong with the OS4 driver system or I don't know what, when the fully working Linux driver, cannot be ported across to OS4 and work almost as good.

I do wonder if something is wrong with the X1000 hardware setup for interrupts or something, as the RTL drivers suck on OS4, My X1000 internet is crippled and the driver runs about 10th of the speed it should on my RTL8139. Linux maxxes it out.

Quote:

Of course, pretending to use the other CPU core after more than a decade long has beaten Duke Nukem Forever...

Sounds like the Duke Nukem Forever Waiting Edition.

@Hypex

There always was large gamer crowd, I guess Lightwave crowd followed over to PC (Maya 3D), and programmers where that many to begin with, a lot when to Mac or Linux. Large gaming engines has completely taken over the gaming market. So, Amiga community has largely been drained of the creatives.

But I do find the scorpion engine interesting, a lot of game ports coming out thanks to it, but tool itself does not even run on Amiga, and I think shows what bad condition the Amiga market really is in. (And chose write the GUI using game engine instead using SDL or some more common.)

there other example of this like Rocket Demo creation tool, for creating Amiga demos, runs on PC, all CPU intensive tasks, are done on other computers and systems, it’s a shame.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Dec-2023 at 12:33 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Dec-2023 at 12:27 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Dec-2023 at 12:27 PM.

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@Karlos

Quote:

Such typical myopic "it's where or to whom you were born" fundamentalist thinking. Get with the times and read the room. I don't have to live in Den Haag or anywhere else Classic Dutch call The Netherlands. I don't have to eat oliebollies or pancakes, understand the language, hang my laundry out the window, charge people tikkies for the minutest common courtesy, refuse to work a second longer than contracted or have any connection of any kind with anyone or anything in the Netherlands or any desire to at any time. To be Dutch is to identify as such. If you disagree, you are a bigot. To quote the greatest Dutch thinker of all time: "I think I am Dutch, therefore I am." And they didn't eat oliebollies either.

That is racist stereotyping and I'm going to my Mommy. Black Piet will put you in a sack and take your back to Muslim Spain to be used as a slave by the filthy Arabs!!!

@Hypex

Quote:

crippled and the driver runs about 10th of the speed it should on my RTL8139. Linux maxxes it out.

I definitely think its because does not use most efficient why transfer packets.
But I also think it can be problem with Sana II itself.

MTU stuff is also bit fishy, should this be automatic, why is it so that it needs to be manually set it under AmigaOS. must be only OS you need worry about this stuff.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Dec-2023 at 12:01 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Dec-2023 at 01:17 PM.

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@Hypex

Quote:

don't know if Amiga compatible would even fit a Draco. Or Amithlon even though it has minimal chipset emulation. And I'd say OS4 on AmigaOne wouldn't fit Amiga compatible either, The reason being Amiga compatibility implies some kind of hardware compatibility

Assuming you can even find it amongst all the silliness, you'll see that in my post I define a "compatible" as any non-Amiga hardware that runs software for Amiga (OS included) and that this covers a broad spectrum from machines with some or all thr original chips installed, to FPGA reimplementations of them, to none whatsoever. The machine just needs to run AmigaOS and applications while simultaneously not being an Amiga (designed/produced by Commodore) to fall into the compatible category.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

The fact that anyone wants to redefine Amiga from a simple, factual "machine created by commodore in the 1980's and early 1990s" definition to one that wraps the Euler set around their preferred implementation of choice in 2023 speaks volumes about their insecurities.

There's nothing wrong with having compatibles. I have some. They're great.

Last edited by Karlos on 10-Dec-2023 at 12:59 PM.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@Bosanac

Quote:

Bosanac wrote: Black Piet will put you in a sack and take your back to Muslim Spain to be used as a slave by the filthy Arabs!!!

This is not popularr in the NGtherlands. Seriously though, that is an odd one.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @Bosanac Quote: Bosanac wrote: @Karlos Sacrilege! Jij klassieke kankerhoer buitenlander! Such typical myopic "it's where or to whom you were born" fundamentalist thinking. Get with the times and read the room. I don't have to live in Den Haag or anywhere else Classic Dutch call The Netherlands. I don't have to eat oliebollies or pancakes, understand the language, hang my laundry out the window, charge people tikkies for the minutest common courtesy, refuse to work a second longer than contracted or have any connection of any kind with anyone or anything in the Netherlands or any desire to at any time. To be Dutch is to identify as such. If you disagree, you are a bigot. To quote the greatest Dutch thinker of all time: "I think I am Dutch, therefore I am." And they didn't eat oliebollies either.

One of my parents' former homeland is dealing with this problem https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/three-dead-southern-philippines-university-gym-blast-media-2023-12-03/

Civil law identity is a real messy debate compared to the CPU instruction set debate.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

Unchecked nationalism and unchecked identity politics are two of the worst ideas humans have ever come up with.

You don't have to be a raging bigot to appreciate the country and culture you were fortunate enough to be born into, or that you chose later having moved somewhere else.

And you don't have to be a raging social justice warrior labelling absolutely anything that doesn't strictly align with your taught sensibilities as bigotry.

Unfortunately those polarisations are real and only getting worse in the world.

Last edited by Karlos on 10-Dec-2023 at 01:48 PM.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Was the ethernet driver finally delivered for the X1000? I looked into this a few years ago. I could have done so sooner since I'm on the beta list but I spent time on other bugs. So apparently there was a beta driver. But they hit a bug where it became unstable and either lost packets or locked up, something to that effect, so just not even close to release. From what I recall the issue was never found so the driver was never released. This is ironic since, there is a Linux driver for the same hardware, that has worked for years. Now all I can say is there must be something wrong with the OS4 driver system or I don't know what, when the fully working Linux driver, cannot be ported across to OS4 and work almost as good. I do wonder if something is wrong with the X1000 hardware setup for interrupts or something, as the RTL drivers suck on OS4, My X1000 internet is crippled and the driver runs about 10th of the speed it should on my RTL8139. Linux maxxes it out.

Unbelievable. I prefer to add nothing else about it: the situation is commenting by itself...

@Hypex

Quote:

What I find interesting is Amithlon received a lot support in the day. I bet it made even a few Intel Outside Amigans turn on the flipside and embrace AMD! Lol. I find this interesting because it lacked full compatibility and couldn't run "Real Amiga" games. It was more focused on the OS with RTG and the practical side of things. I would actually called it an AmigaOS emulator. Now you contrast with today and such a configuration would be unacceptable! Now days people demand the chipset be there in any new machine or plastic product. The Vamipre could not survive without it. An Armiga would not be without it. Amiga people unfamiliar with an AmigaOne think it's pointless when you tell them it doesn't have any Amiga chipset nor direct support for Amiga hardware. This is such a contrast. When did the scene change from power Amiga users to an Amiga gamer crowd?

I think the thing here is that the people that had their heads turned by Amithlon were more serious users that already had expanded machines and had already weaned themselves off native chipset dependency for the most part. Or at least that was the case for me. Sure, I enjoyed a bit of classic gaming but almost all of my Amiga time was split between music production, coding and various productivity tasks.

Today it's a bit different, I think people want to have their cake and eat it. Or a more holistic experience. Call it what you will, but given the available performance of today's hardware why would you not want performance and broader compatibility too?

I'd personally love something partway between the vampire and the PiStorm, especially if the native video acceleration and 3D of the PiStorm were also accessible. I mean, what's not to want?

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@Hammer

You've omitted the 8GB of RAM and Wi-Fi/BT.

Also, you can't take size (volume) or power consumption out of the equation. The Raspberry Pi 5 represents amazing value in the cross-section of performance per $, performance per Watt, and performance per litre.

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agami Quote:

You've omitted the 8GB of RAM and Wi-Fi/BT. Also, you can't take size (volume) or power consumption out of the equation. The Raspberry Pi 5 represents amazing value in the cross-section of performance per $, performance per Watt, and performance per litre.

Hammer makes a good point though. In more than a few ways, the RPi 5 is less competitive than earlier RPis. Low end x86-64 hardware is almost as cheap and has better GPU and I/O options. There is usually more PCIe lanes and GPUs work out of the box. Integrated GPUs generally have more performance. There is a huge library of software and games for the standardized hardware. Almost all low end x86-64 hardware has better single core performance while RPi 5 may remain competitive in parallel performance by having more cores. Most low end x86-64 hardware SoCs using older chip processes use more power and those using newer processes cost more but there isn't too much difference. The RPi 5 practically needs a fan and a USB-C cable designed to handle the power draw may add more expense bringing it closer to low end x86-64 hardware. The x86-64 cores are pretty much at the limit of how small they scale and most improvements come from better chip processes, including memory chips, now. The RPi 5 has entered their turf while x86-64 cores had trouble scaling down to RPi 4 power and cost. Turf wars are good for consumers though.

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: @Hammer You've omitted the 8GB of RAM and Wi-Fi/BT. Also, you can't take size (volume) or power consumption out of the equation. The Raspberry Pi 5 represents amazing value in the cross-section of performance per $, performance per Watt, and performance per litre.

You omitted the following

For ASRock B450M-HDV Rev4
128-bit DDR4-3600, UDIMM ECC, and non-ECC slot support.
RX Vega has DirectX 12 Feature Level 12_1 and its corresponding Vulkan API level support.
7.1 CH HD Audio (Realtek ALC887/897 Audio Codec)
1 x PCI Express 3.0 x16 Slot (PCIE2: x16 mode)
1 x PCIe 2.0 x1 slot
4 x SATA3 6.0 Gb/s Connectors, support RAID (RAID 0, RAID 1 and RAID 10), NCQ, AHCI and Hot Plug
M.2 PCI Express module up to Gen3 x4 (4GB/s full duplex).
1 x USB 3.1 Gen1 Header (Supports 2 USB 3.1 Gen1 ports) (Supports ESD Protection)
2 x USB 2.0 Headers (Support 4 USB 2.0 ports) (Supports ESD Protection)
Rear Panel I/O
2 x USB 2.0 Ports (Supports ESD Protection)
4 x USB 3.1 Gen1 Ports (Supports ESD Protection)
1 x RJ-45 LAN Port with LED (ACT/LINK LED and SPEED LED)
UDIMM ECC memory support allows the workstation role.

MSI B450M-A PRO MAX
128-bit DDR4-4133, UDIMM non-ECC slot support.
RX Vega has DirectX 12 Feature Level 12_1 and its corresponding Vulkan API level support.
7.1 CH HD Audio (Realtek ALC887/897 Audio Codec)
1 x PCI Express 3.0 x16 Slot (PCIE2: x16 mode)
1 x PCIe 2.0 x1 slot
4 x SATA3 6.0 Gb/s Connectors, support RAID (RAID 0, RAID 1 and RAID 10), NCQ, AHCI and Hot Plug
M.2 PCI Express module up to Gen3 x4 (4GB/s full duplex).
6x USB 3.2 Gen1 (SuperSpeed USB) ports (4 ports on the back panel, 2 ports available through the internal USB connector)
6x USB 2.0 (High-speed USB) ports (2 ports on the back panel, 4 ports available through the internal USB connectors)

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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@matthey

Quote:

The x86-64 cores are pretty much at the limit of how small they scale

That's not correct.

Quote:

and most improvements come from better chip processes, including memory chips, now. The RPi 5 has entered their turf while x86-64 cores had trouble scaling down to RPi 4 power and cost. Turf wars are good for consumers though.

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44699&forum=2&start=200&viewmode=flat&order=0#857109
3DMarks Physics

AMD A4-5000 quad-core Jaguar @ 1.5 Ghz = 16,812, 28 nm process node

AMD A4-5200 quad-core Jaguar @ 2.0 Ghz Physics Score: 24,528, 28 nm process node

Huawei Mate 8's HiSilicon's Kirin 950 is an octal-core chip with four ARM Cortex A72 cores at 2.3GHz and four ARM A53 cores at 1.8GHz. Physics Score: 14,566

ASUS Zenfone 2 has a Quad-core Intel Atom Z3580 @ 2.3 GHz (4 GB RAM model) or Quad-core Intel Atom Z3580 @ 1.8 GHz (2 GB RAM model) Physics Score: ~20,767

----------------

AMD's gaming APUs are entering hand-held form factors e.g. Steam Deck (OLED version has 6 nm TSMC) and Z1 (Phoenix SoC, 4 nm TSMC with defect AI NPU section) series.
Degrading the IGP can reduce SoC's power consumption and wouldn't be useful for gaming use cases.

https://hothardware.com/reviews/huawei-mate-8-review?page=6
Huawei Mate 8 Review: Examining ARM's Cortex-A72 And HiSilicon's Kirin 950


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For ARM Cortex A76, refer to Qualcomm Snapdragon 8cx (Kryo 495) known as Microsoft SQ1 SoC and Surface Pro X example

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Microsoft-SQ1-SoC.436918.0.html

3DMark 11 - 3DM11 Performance Physics

Microsoft SQ1 = 3210
Kryo 495 has 4 p-Cores + 4 e-Cores via 3 GHz Cortex-A76 + 1.80 GHz Cortex-A55. Fabricated on 7 nm TSMC.

AMD Ryzen 3 2200U (two Zen 1.0 Cores with 4 threads) = 3344. Fabricated on 14 nm GlobalFoundries.

Kryo 495 Cortex-A76 @ 3Ghz is faster than RPi 5B's Cortex-A76 @ 2.4 Ghz

All mentioned CPUs can be end-user overclocked.

Geekbench 5's heavy AES workloads are useless for gaming and it's useless for Amiga 68K.

The criteria is pure gaming CPU physics.

AMD Ryzen 2200G has 4 Zen 1.0 cores and 4 threads and TDP is less constrained due to desktop market target.

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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

commodore never upgrade sprites to 256 colors.

Useless for 3D.

3DO and Sega Saturn used distortion four-sided sprite engines as the basis for its quadrilateral 3D.

Sun GX workstation graphics has a quadrilateral 3D system before the mentioned game consoles.

An engineer from Sun GX co-founded NVIDIA and designed a quadrilateral 3D NV1 chip.

Key original Amiga team in 3DO has designed a flawed quadrilateral 3D system.

NVIDIA's NV1 and Sega Saturn are market failures. NVIDIA quickly changed with NV3's 3D triangle polygon system known as RiVA 128 which supports OpenGL.



Quote:

commodore never upgrade playfields to 256 colors.

3D has perspective-correct parallax.

Quote:

In 256 colors amiga chipset work as dumb framebuffer.

AGA's 256-color dumb framebuffer is useful when there's CPU power.

AGA's 256-color dumb framebuffer can still scale to 320x200p 50 fps 256 color Quake which is faster than many SVGA ISA cards.

C= AGA is below the fast ISA SVGA cards such as Tseng ET4000AX, Trident 8900CL, and WD90C32.

For PC DOS-era games, C= AGA is not the best framebuffer chipset, but it's not bad. The weak compute power is the major problem for stock AGA machines.


Quote:

there is no reasons to use aros on x86 or arm. it is still on win98 level.

AROS X64 has SMP and 64bit support which is ahead of Windows 98/ME.

AROS X64 with SMP is in a halfway house between unreleased Windows 2000 64-bit and Windows ME.

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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hypex

Quote:

What I find interesting is Amithlon received a lot support in the day. I bet it made even a few Intel Outside Amigans turn on the flipside and embrace AMD! Lol. I find this interesting because it lacked full compatibility and couldn't run "Real Amiga" games. It was more focused on the OS with RTG and the practical side of things. I would actually called it an AmigaOS emulator.

But I guess since Linux is still running underneath one might get regular UAE and launch the games with it and have amithlon for the productivity stuff

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