@kolla

Linux? Why would they buy it for Linux? Does anyone buy the A500 mini to use Linux? Aren't cheaper arm boards available for the propose of running Linux?

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@BigD

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/neofid-studios/daemonclaw

Although not only for Amiga this retro game Kickstarter has almost all the goal reached with still 29 days to go.

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@BigD

Quote:

will probably have a THEA500 Mini version!

What does this even mean? Special THEA500 mini features? It's just Amiberry, anything that works on THEA500 mini works on just about every other Amiga emulator, FPGA system, and even real hardware.

I looked up all the games you listed... Turrican AGA isn't specifically targeting THEA500 mini, they just provide a link to how to install it on the THEA500. Renegade the same (and most hits is about you yourself on EAB messing around with it), Castlemania... or Maria Renard's Revenge? Not specifically targeting THEA500 mini, just mentions that falls within the requirements, among with many other options. I don't see any "THEA500 Mini viersion" of anything, and I cannot fathom what "THEA500 mini" features that would justify special versions for it.

Quote:

Why not get people to buy The Mini versions direct off a webstore?

Because "a webstore" isn't something you just put up on a whim - aside from licensing issues that you meantion, it also implies setting up an ecommerce infrastructure and following rules and regulations. How many THEA500 minis are sold? How many do you expect to see updated with online capabilities? How many of these again are used by people who already know how to get their stuff? So Is it really worth all this hassle? I'd say not.

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@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: @kolla Linux? Why would they buy it for Linux? Does anyone buy the A500 mini to use Linux? Aren't cheaper arm boards available for the propose of running Linux?

It already runs Linux, in case you missed it.

Let's take a random game, for example Doom - why would anyone wish to run Amiga version of Doom on the THEA500 Mini when a native Linux/ARM version exists that runs a heck lot faster and better?

The THEA500 mini isn't limited to just Amiga emulation either, it can emulate many old gaming systems, for which there exists games and versions of games, that are sometimes better or run better than the Amiga versions. So why be limited to just Amiga?

Last edited by kolla on 12-Sep-2023 at 11:05 PM.

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BigD Quote:

Such as the recent THEA500 Mini version of Turrican 2 AGA (I know the licensing wouldn't allow payment), The Renegades, Castlevania (again licensing problematic) and I expect Metro Siege will probably have a THEA500 Mini version! Why not get people to buy The Mini versions direct off a webstore?

THEA500 Mini is not good enough hardware for a web store. It can be expanded through USB to give a thumb drive and internet access but it is a messy solution with extra wires and power supplies. This defeats the purpose of THEA500 Mini small case and it is still low quality ARM emulation. There may be enough THEA500 Minis to target products for it but there are not as many expanded THEA500 Minis and they may be expanded in different ways. It's kind of like putting an Amiga 500 in a larger case with a hard drive and 2MiB of fast memory expecting that to become the standard spec that developers would target back in the late 1980s. The base standard is what is important like the 68000+OCS+512kiB, 68000+ECS+1MiB and 68EC020+AGA+2MiB plus I/O. Some Amiga games supported extra memory, a HD or a CD-ROM (standard with CD32) but these sometimes caused compatibility problems as well. THEA500 Mini inspires Amiga nostalgia and it is affordable but it is more of a toy and not the hardware the 68k Amiga needs to set new Amiga standards and attract serious developers.

It's great to see enhanced Amiga games, a few game ports and the occasional new game but these are labors of love due to lack of competitive, affordable and nostalgic 68k Amiga hardware. Maybe a store would have worked if THEA500 Mini had added internet support with a store but they didn't. The A600GS adds internet access and a store put the product likely won't offer as much nostalgia, initial value (mouse, controller & game pack), as low of price and the copycat will be late to the game. Real developers left the Amiga like the indie game Legend of Grimrock series developers which have sold over 1 million copies of the modernized Dungeon Master clone. There isn't any new Amiga hardware ex-developers for the Amiga find interesting, that original Amiga developers could support or that could sell in quantities at least as high as THEA500 Mini. It's just lets not talk about the current Amiga hardware (AmigaNOne hardware selling in the hundreds of units now) and bag over heads ARM emulation for the 68k Amiga market which has the potential to be mass produced and provide more value than THEA500 Mini. The 68k Amiga toy hardware solution isn't even powerful emulation. Atari tried that with the new Atari VCS which has new x86-64 Atari game inspired 2D games as well as powerful emulation for original Atari hardware. It's a powerful versatile system starting at a reasonable $299 with Atari themed case and controllers but sales have been sluggish. While the 10,000+ units sold is likely more than AmigaNOne all time and at a faster pace, it doesn't compare to THEA500 Mini which has pitiful hardware in comparison but has a lower price and succeeds with nostalgia. The next Atari hardware attempt will be the Atari 2600+ which is more faithful accepting cartridges, is lower priced and more limited which I expect to do better but it is still emulation that some Atari fans on AtariAge were complaining about. Developing and treating the hardware with respect draws huge interest as it is nostalgic itself. AmigaNOne threw the 68k and Amiga chipset away and it is an embarrassment. The Natami project drew hundreds of thousands of interested people and many of the Vampire/AC customers feel like it is an Amiga successor because it is more faithful in hardware and closer to how the Amiga should be developed and enhanced (C= used FPGAs for development too). Unfortunately, FPGA cores and ISAs optimized for performance in an FPGA are not what is wanted in ASIC or a million dollars or so may provide a 68k Amiga SoC chip with more 68k performance and lower production cost than off the shelf commodity ARM emulation. At least the SAGA chipset is developed better with more conservative and natural enhancements that are backward compatible making it easy to enhance games for a possible new Amiga standard. The hard part is the 68k CPU core which is what tripped up the Natami project. Gunnar's resurrection of Jens' Natami N68050 FPGA core was a blessing and a curse at the same time.

Last edited by matthey on 13-Sep-2023 at 12:11 AM.

@kolla

I know it run Linux, but how many of those who bought it have boughy to run Linux stuff? I would guess that if the interest was to run Linux software they would have bought an arm machine which happens to also run Amiga stuff through UAE. So you would put a door on the door and sell it as an Amiga with Amiga games but then you would market it with Linux games? I know there's Linux software but I don't think that the majority of these users are searching for much more then Amiga games... would they'd be rather interested in a clean and easy way to buy new Amiga games instead of searching for Linux ones? Of course you'll have those, but I mean % wise, are they relevant?

Last edited by pixie on 13-Sep-2023 at 05:25 PM.

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@kolla

Quote:

How many THEA500 minis are sold? How many do you expect to see updated with online capabilities? How many of these again are used by people who already know how to get their stuff? So Is it really worth all this hassle? I'd say not.

I guess with an USB stick, regular or other made to look to resemble the modulator could give it those online capabilities and keep it within the style... is it worth the hassle? Well they might get the hassle of getting Linux games for arm and search the internet for it, but if provided a store alongside the way they start their Amiga games, is it now an hassle? I guess...

https://youtu.be/lZ7xZYoTvsY?si=kfftUZFvODO8uocB

these damn things ar cute af! xD

Last edited by pixie on 13-Sep-2023 at 06:46 AM.
Last edited by pixie on 13-Sep-2023 at 05:18 AM.

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@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: https://youtu.be/lZ7xZYoTvsY?si=kfftUZFvODO8uocB these damn things ar cute af! xD

I agree. Super cute.

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@agami

I like the hub but it needs ethernet functionality now that it's supported!

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@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: @kolla I know it run Linux, but hoe many of those who bought it have buyers to run Linux stuff? I would guess that if the interest was to run Linux software they would have bought an arm machine which happens to also run Amiga stuff through UAE.

And isn’t that exactly what they bought when they bought the THEA500 Mini?

Last edited by kolla on 13-Sep-2023 at 04:50 PM.

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@kolla

I know that if like to twinkler with Linux I use my PC, or my Mac for the sheer thrill of force it to work there, had I had a mini I would surely run only Amiga stuff, I have no need to run Linux in such underpowered platform.
I guess the vast majority bought it because it's an hassle free way to run Amiga stuff, obviously some explore it to the max, and tweak it and run Linux and flash it and whatever... to be serious I don't even get what you refer by 'that'

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@kolla

Quote:

And isn’t that exactly what they bought when they bought the THEA500 Mini?

No, it isn't. There is some tweaking of Amiberry and .ol files required to get the most out of The Mini but no Linux exposure from my perspective. Maybe your talking as a coder? I'm sure Ami-Jimmy probably used Linux to get AMiNIMiga compiled but the regular user doesn't care!

Last edited by BigD on 13-Sep-2023 at 06:57 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 13-Sep-2023 at 06:55 PM.

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@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: @kolla ... to be serious I don't even get what you refer by 'that'

Ignore him. He is being deliberately obtuse.
He knows very well that most people who bought an A500 Mini did so for the retro mini console for playing the included retro Amiga games. Their technical knowledge or care factor extends to the fact that like all other retro mini consoles over the past few years, the games run on some sort of emulation.

I'd go as far to say that at least 50% of them have never run UAE on any other system, and expect a "plug-in and play" experience, with zero interest in modding/hacking.

Also like the other retro mini consoles, the majority of people who've bought one, have played with it for a little while, and then have packed it up and stored it away.
Only a minority of users would be interested in modding/hacking/expanding their A500 Mini.

@kolla has this annoying solipsistic view of everything: Reality for everyone is how he perceives it.

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@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: He knows very well that most people who bought an A500 Mini did so for the retro mini console for playing the included retro Amiga games.

Actually, no. The majority buys this because it’s a cheap games console that plugs into a TV and can entertain the kids for a little while. Some bought it as a nostalgia thing. I suspect only a small minority bought it as a hassle free way to play old Amiga games specifically.

Quote:

Their technical knowledge or care factor extends to the fact that like all other retro mini consoles over the past few years, the games run on some sort of emulation. I'd go as far to say that at least 50% of them have never run UAE on any other system, and expect a "plug-in and play" experience, with zero interest in modding/hacking.

Exactly, that’s my point.

Quote:

Also like the other retro mini consoles, the majority of people who've bought one, have played with it for a little while, and then have packed it up and stored it away.

Precisely.

Quote:

Only a minority of users would be interested in modding/hacking/expanding their A500 Mini.

And that’s my point as well.

So who would this webstore be for?

Those of us who hack these devices to get networking etc already have a “store” for everything aminet and whdload via UHC-Tools.

The type of people who would be in market for any ARM system to run emulator on are also those who wouldn’t mind buying an THEA500 mini to hack it exactly because it is an ARM system with emulator, with the bonus of being shipped in a “oh my god it’s so cute!!11” case, along with a fitting game pad and mouse.

And at the end of the day - does ANY of this matter for the so called Amiga community? As I see, not at all, yet another emulator system doesn’t change much, if anything.

Btw, personally I bought a gamecube and two wii consoles back in the day. I even bought a few games for the wii, most notably Zelda, Shadow Princess. The only reason I bought these nintendos for was for hacking, modding and Linux. Ditto for original XBox and Playstation. And for that matter, G4 mac minis, Linksys NSLU2s, asus wlhdd and tons of other cheap embedded systems, even some old 68k macs.

Last edited by kolla on 15-Sep-2023 at 05:31 AM.
Last edited by kolla on 15-Sep-2023 at 05:29 AM.

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kolla Quote:

So who would this webstore be for?

Lets's look at a hypothetical 500,000 THEA500 Minis sold. If 10% of customers get internet access through USB and 10% of those would buy from an Amiga store, that would still be 5000 customers. AMIStore is an AmigaOS 4 only store and their active user base is probably around that.

http://www.amistore.net/

A certain percentage of the AmigaOS 4 user base probably doesn't have accounts but since AmigaOS 4 is incomplete lacking drivers, many users may be compelled to use it. Maybe there are more than 5000 accounts at AMIStore but I doubt it. The funny thing is that AMIStore links to other Amiga stores.

https://www.amigakit.com/
https://amigakit.amiga.store/
https://www.amigastore.com/
https://www.amigadeals.com/

I expect AmigaOS 4 users are the most likely Amiga users to use an Amiga store and that is about an Amiga store for every 1000 AmigaOS 4 users so surely a store for a few thousand THEA500 users is appropriate.

@matthey

As pointed out elsewhere - AmiStore is -dead- - try register and you find out.

But fear not - there’s now AmiSphere!

EDIT: oh, AmiSphere is also dead?

EDIT2: no, AmiSphere is alive, just somewhere else.

Al this AmiCrap this and that from AeonKit is mighty confusing.

Last edited by kolla on 15-Sep-2023 at 05:59 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 15-Sep-2023 at 05:46 PM.

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@matthey

Where does your half a million sold units come from?

The only reason AmiStore/AmiSphere kinda works, is because volume is very low (and the units are limited in all kinds of ways) - once you talk of thousands of online units that connect from all over the world, you must look at how you scale the service. And that comes with a cost.

But also - as someone who’d definitely bring the THEA500 mini online - why would I use a store? Why wouldn’t I just use UHCTools (or one of the frontends) to download from whdownload dot com like we all do with our current systems? Or use AmigaVision or any of the other prepared collections?

Last edited by kolla on 15-Sep-2023 at 06:13 PM.

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kolla Quote:

Al this AmiCrap this and that from AeonKit is mighty confusing.

That was kind of the point of my Amiga store sarcasm along with making fun of the small Amiga user base with noncompetitive hardware.

kolla Quote:

Where does your half a million sold units come from?

Do you know the definition of hypothetical? Maybe THEA500 Mini has sold closer to half that volume currently but it will likely remain on the market for years to come with further price reductions like THEC64 Mini. An Amiga store would want to project the future customer base and not just the customer base today.

kolla Quote:

But also - as someone who’d definitely bring the THEA500 mini online - why would I use a store? Why wouldn’t I just use UHCTools (or one of the frontends) to download from whdownload dot com like we all do with our current systems? Or use AmigaVision or any of the other prepared collections?

If there was a large enough 68k Amiga market, licenses could be obtained and enhanced and ported games using IP protected files could be provided in a tested ready to download and install form. Some Amiga users may not have the original games, the AGA versions or CD32 versions of some software which could be provided legally when possible. Some Amiga users may have bad media like floppies or bad hardware so no way to get on a modern drive. Some developers may want to make money off new software. Updates could be simplified and reviews could be read before purchase. There is potentially a service provided with a store which may be acceptable if the games are priced low. Many consoles have emulation games in their app stores often for less than a meal costs and sometimes for free to increase the value of the console. Cloanto/Amiga Corporation has been signing licenses recently for this retro market. It's a much larger potential market than THEA500 Mini and A600GS as some consoles have millions of units and much more powerful emulation hardware. There just isn't a market for enhanced Amiga games like Turrican II AGA or maybe Turrican II AGA CD32 because there isn't enough real hardware or better Amiga hardware which is an accepted successor. Emulation will never be accepted even if emulation supported a 68k ISA upgrade, SAGA chipset enhancements or a new modern 3D layer. There are no new compiler targets for emulation. THEA500 Mini and A600GS are ARM Linux hardware toys and not 68k Amiga hardware which is necessary to expand the Amiga user base for development and stores. Maybe there is some development and hacking on the Amiga side but it is a labor of love at most. Even if 10 million THEA500 Minis sold, all we would have would be a bigger Amiga illusion and not a 10 million strong Amiga user base.

Last edited by matthey on 15-Sep-2023 at 09:14 PM.

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @matthey But also - as someone who’d definitely bring the THEA500 mini online - why would I use a store?

You’re doing the solipsism thing again.

OK, so you’re not the target demographic for the store. The demographic you’re in would represent a minority.

A legitimate store would compel a non-insignificant percentage of those who have stored away their A500 Mini, to bring it back out and play some more.
Many of those would happily pay for a simple and convenient way to get a new game pack, or maybe purchase games à la carte at perhaps $5 per title. Saves them time messing around, and they get to hopefully support more ongoing releases.

Last edited by agami on 16-Sep-2023 at 12:46 AM.
Last edited by agami on 16-Sep-2023 at 12:44 AM.

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agami Quote:

A legitimate store would compel a non-insignificant percentage of those who have stored away their A500 Mini, to bring it back out and play some more.

Maybe. One of the advantages of THEA500 Mini is convenience but some of that advantage is lost when a USB hub is needed with USB thumb drive, USB keyboard and USB internet device followed by installing a bunch of software. Someone may sell a mostly ready to go package but there is still an inconvenient matrix of cables to deal with and a not insignificant added cost relative to the cost of THEA500 Mini.

agami Quote:

Many of those would happily pay for a simple and convenient way to get a new game pack, or maybe purchase games à la carte at perhaps $5 per title. Saves them time messing around, and they get to hopefully support more ongoing releases.

Right. Most of the games are cheap, some are free, some offer enhancements, some are game packs which offer more value and sometimes there are sales for lower prices. It looks like the retro game prices are somewhat standardizing due to competition. The new Atari VCS usually had the same prices as Steam while availability varied more.

Is the Atari VCS Store Over-Priced? Let's Compare to Steam!
https://youtu.be/Q-B-_l2MS0s?t=66

Affordable x86-64 hardware like the Atari VCS can probably emulate PPC hardware for AmigaOS 4 with more performance than some of the AmigaNOne embedded PPC hardware. The Atari VCS just needs to support all the Jay Miner designed console and computer hardware. This is much better than cheap ARM emulation but the VCS isn't selling that well with 10k+ units sold since the 2020 launch. The problem is likely that the powerful consoles offer more value and they can have app stores with the same retro games at similar prices. The VCS is more open hardware allowing other OSs but it is difficult to differentiate similar products with a similar price. What does this hardware have to do with an Atari VCS when these other devices have the same emulated games? Are eye candy cases and controllers enough for a non-Atari device to identify as Atari? Is THEA500 Mini case, CD32 controller and tank mouse enough to identify as an Amiga or is it a cheap toy that gives the illusion of an Amiga?