@Hypex

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Hypex wrote: @ppcamiga1 Quote: I expect less price. We all did. Timing is the worse. Quote: But even 1600 Euro for whole computer is still less than a1200 with 040 card and pci slots and voodoo3 in 2023 prices. a1222 will be new and hudred times faster tha 040. That may be so. Just like my A1/XE setup cost me $2,000 against $2,500 for my overall A1200 setup and made my A1200 look like crap. But, people will say it's not a real Amiga,

Well, because it's the truth: no PC-with-PowerPC is an Amiga! By definition!

And this A1222 isn't even an AmigaOne (the brand which is usually, but not exclusively, used for a PC-with-PowerPC).

Why could you pretend to call them "Amiga"? Any FACT supporting you on that?
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compare it with their PC or Mac, then say it's too expensive.

Even if you compare them to some a servers they are expensive...
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Amiga people have been saying the same thing the last 20 years. Sometimes I wonder if Amiga users were ever Amiga users because they always say how good the PC and Windows is now and rely on Windows to install Amiga software. On their Amiga. Without complaining that their real Amiga and Amiga cards cost so much more than a PC and is so much slower.

Hypex, how old are you? Those discussions were typical when we were young and Amiga fanaticals.

However we've grown-up and the fanaticism should have been gone from long time, right?

More important, we should be professionals now. And as such, only technical FACTs / technical data should matter when analyzing something and giving our opinion (which could be different, even having the same facts/data: there are still different backgrounds / experiences and visions).

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Hypex wrote: @agami Quote: In this regard A-EON, Hyperion, and the MorphOS team are no different. They maintain a PowerPC stance because of the commercial gravity pulling in the direction of existing/completed OS work and developed apps. When it costs them more to maintain PowerPC then to switch away, then the commercially sensible thing to do will be to switch away. Which is kind of where we find ourselves today, it's just that it's happening in Amiga slow motion. Except here there is one big difference. By the time Apple were dropping PPC they had already dropped MacOS. They dumped MacOS in 2001 and replaced it with OSX.

That's because the MacOses had a good level on abstraction which make it way easier.

Something which is completely lacking to the Amiga o.s. (no abstraction and everything exposed = no future for the o.s.).

Even Windows 1.0 was much better designed, from this PoV.
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To compare with Apple, the Amiga world with OS4 and MorphOS are still running MacOS Classic PPC. To logically follow in Apples foot steps,

Why we should do the same? There's no logic on that, unless that it's proven (how?).
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since anything Amiga has been living under Macs shadow since last century, they need to replace the OS with UNIX. Once they replace the core of what is left of the Amiga, for any practical use, the OS, they can then move off PPC. They could even replace AmigaOS with Windows, since most Amigas users use Windows these days. Why most Amiga user don't use macOS is lost on me, since macOS is more Amiga like than Windows ever was, and runs on those cheaper Intel CPUs.

That's the keyword: TO YOU!

I find Windows closer to the Amiga than Macs with MacOS. I even use the SUBST command to simulate Amiga's volumes assigns.

@cdimauro

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I find Windows closer to the Amiga than Macs with MacOS. I even use the SUBST command to simulate Amiga's volumes assigns.

Guilty as charged!

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@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: @cdimauro Quote: I find Windows closer to the Amiga than Macs with MacOS. I even use the SUBST command to simulate Amiga's volumes assigns. Guilty as charged!

Given it's been 30 years, it's no surprise that most consumer computing operating systems have implemented facsimiles of Amiga OS conventions and paradigms during that time. But none of them are quite the modern re-imagining of the paradigm shift that was Amiga OS.

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@cdimauro

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Something which is completely lacking to the Amiga o.s. (no abstraction and everything exposed = no future for the o.s.).

This made it a dream for people that actually wanted to work out how stuff worked! Admittedly configuring the system was/is problematic considering how long Commodore was absent from development guidance! AHI, RTG, Picasso96, Oxypatcher/Cyberpatcher, etc all came afterwards!

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@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: @cdimauro Quote: I find Windows closer to the Amiga than Macs with MacOS. I even use the SUBST command to simulate Amiga's volumes assigns. Guilty as charged!

Oops...


@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: @pixie Quote: pixie wrote: @cdimauro Guilty as charged! Given it's been 30 years, it's no surprise that most consumer computing operating systems have implemented facsimiles of Amiga OS conventions and paradigms during that time. But none of them are quite the modern re-imagining of the paradigm shift that was Amiga OS.

Same feeling, but what I miss primarily is the general volumes handling of the Amiga o.s..
SUBST is a very old command, which was fortunately expanded to allow to specify full paths, but it's just a single letter that could be used. And you cannot "chain" (ADD) paths to the same assign.

Other things which I miss is the general filesystem structure and syntax of commands.

The datatypes... yeah! There are codecs now, but it's not exactly the same things.

Those are the most important things which I miss.


@BigD

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BigD wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Something which is completely lacking to the Amiga o.s. (no abstraction and everything exposed = no future for the o.s.). This made it a dream for people that actually wanted to work out how stuff worked! Admittedly configuring the system was/is problematic considering how long Commodore was absent from development guidance! AHI, RTG, Picasso96, Oxypatcher/Cyberpatcher, etc all came afterwards!

Patching the o.s. was good for implementing those things. However it was its biggest problem that crippled its evolution.

In fact, there's no NG o.s.: AROS, MorphOS, OS4, are all ports or reimplementation of the original o.s.. There's absolutelu nothing "NG", because all problems of the original o.s. are still there...

@cdimauro

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... what I miss primarily is the general volumes handling of the Amiga o.s.. SUBST is a very old command, which was fortunately expanded to allow to specify full paths, but it's just a single letter that could be used. And you cannot "chain" (ADD) paths to the same assign. Other things which I miss is the general filesystem structure and syntax of commands. The datatypes... yeah! There are codecs now, but it's not exactly the same things. Those are the most important things which I miss.

Hear, hear! Thes are aspects where the Amiga still stands out! Although only for those who recognise this.

OldFart

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@thread

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OldFart wrote: @cdimauro Quote: ... what I miss primarily is the general volumes handling of the Amiga o.s.. SUBST is a very old command, which was fortunately expanded to allow to specify full paths, but it's just a single letter that could be used. And you cannot "chain" (ADD) paths to the same assign. Other things which I miss is the general filesystem structure and syntax of commands. The datatypes... yeah! There are codecs now, but it's not exactly the same things. Those are the most important things which I miss. Hear, hear! These are aspects where the Amiga still stands out! Although only for those who recognise this. OldFart

OK, let the record show the motion put forward by @cdimauro has been seconded by @OldFart.
I will now ask for a vote of the assembled committee: All in favour of the motion that no other contemporary consumer computing operating system has yet reached equivalence with OG Amiga OS levels of coolness?

The motion has passed with 3 ayes, 0 nays.

With this, the resolution that "In fact, there's no NG o.s.: AROS, MorphOS, OS4, are all ports or reimplementation of the original o.s.. There's absolutelu nothing "NG", because all problems of the original o.s. are still there..." has also been adopted.

This session has concluded. Council adjourned.

Last edited by agami on 18-Nov-2023 at 02:41 AM.

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@matthey

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Pico board? As in Raspberry Pi Pico board with 264kiB of on chip SRAM, 2MiB of on board flash memory and no video output? Do you mean RPi Zero instead which is or at least was only $1 USD more?

This picozx/vga projects surely looks awesome!
https://youtu.be/ilOYLAkxxOQ?si=9f8QGKbVsibLdx44
https://youtu.be/RIOdtT63yf8?si=9rQ8ZwpklNy-1jHh

https://www.breatharian.eu/hw/picovga/index_en.html

Last edited by pixie on 02-Feb-2024 at 09:17 PM.

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pixie Quote:

This picozx/vga projects surely looks awesome!

Yea, the Pico and RP2040 SoC are very cheap embedded building blocks. It is possible to add video output although it requires some work. There is even a handheld console.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumby_(console)

RPi Foundation only sold 10 million RP2040 SoCs in 2021. I wonder how many they are selling now that the economy has recovered more?

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/raspberry-pi-10-million-rp2040s

That's what happens with cheap embedded building blocks and, yes, we can be sure most of these SoCs were sold into the embedded market considering they don't have video output by default.

https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/raspberry-pi-direct-buy-rp2040-in-bulk-from-just-0-70/

The funny thing is that a 68060+AGA Amiga uses fewer transistors than a $0.70 USD RP2040 and can provide video output, although without SRAM external memory would be required.

Meanwhile we have AmigaNOne and AmigaNOwhere perpetually. Only Amiga makes it impossible!

Last edited by matthey on 02-Feb-2024 at 11:44 PM.

@matthey
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RPi Foundation only sold 10 million RP2040 SoCs in 2021. I wonder how many they are selling now that the economy has recovered more?

From personal experience, we have recently completed a design with four of them per unit. And the factory test gear for actually producing the units has a bunch of full Picos in there, too.

(Side note, for anyone who might be tempted to do the same: if designing multiple RP2040 into a product, that product is likely to contain a USB hub. Make sure you choose a hub with High Speed support and per-port transaction translators, lest you run into all sorts of USB "fun"...)

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The funny thing is that a 68060+AGA Amiga uses fewer transistors than a $0.70 USD RP2040 and can provide video output, although without SRAM external memory would be required.

At the price of the RP2040, it lends itself to be used simply as an I/O extender (especially given the I/O capabilities the PIOs provide). The one drawback to that is the lack of built-in non-volatile storage, combined with the boot loader only talking USB --- but I have recently come across some source that uses SWD to propagate code from one RP2040 into another; So I have a design brewing that daisy-chains 9 of them, to do coordinated simultaneous reads from 64 I2C magnetometers.

Reliable availability of such a dirt-cheap and quite powerful MCU certainly makes a bunch of interesting new stuff possible, and economically viable.

umisef Quote:

From personal experience, we have recently completed a design with four of them per unit. And the factory test gear for actually producing the units has a bunch of full Picos in there, too. (Side note, for anyone who might be tempted to do the same: if designing multiple RP2040 into a product, that product is likely to contain a USB hub. Make sure you choose a hub with High Speed support and per-port transaction translators, lest you run into all sorts of USB "fun"...)

Interesting. What was the primary motivation of using several RP2040 SoCs instead of a larger MCU? Modular expandibility, more I/O connections, better I/O control with more cores, availability and cost? Are you using both CPU cores?

umisef Quote:

At the price of the RP2040, it lends itself to be used simply as an I/O extender (especially given the I/O capabilities the PIOs provide). The one drawback to that is the lack of built-in non-volatile storage, combined with the boot loader only talking USB --- but I have recently come across some source that uses SWD to propagate code from one RP2040 into another; So I have a design brewing that daisy-chains 9 of them, to do coordinated simultaneous reads from 64 I2C magnetometers.

Traditional MCU NVRAM (typically NOR flash) doesn't scale well to smaller chip process nodes where power is reduced that is needed to write cells. It is possible at the RP2040 40nm node but the trend is to move NVRAM off chip despite the loss of convenience. This does allow more NVRAM options, wear is not an issue for the MCU itself and the MCU can be lower cost. More boot options would be nice but the RP2040 MCU is simple, low power and cheap.

umisef Quote:

Reliable availability of such a dirt-cheap and quite powerful MCU certainly makes a bunch of interesting new stuff possible, and economically viable.

The RP2040 SoC is good for the first RPi Foundation produced commodity chip. It looks like they are reducing industry standard margins to take market share and increase their reputation as a reliable budget producer. They are showing just how cheap a MCU can be produced with the low cost of modern chip production. I wouldn't be surprised if they produced a little more expensive MCU with better features as they work their way up to replacing the smart phone SoCs for the RPi market. A lot more transistors are available in a SoC for just a little more cost. A lot more performance would be available if they didn't aim quite as low for power but that is where much of the MCU embedded market is. The embedded market is large with many successful PPA tradeoffs possible though.

my amiga one works like my old amiga 1200.
it is like my old amiga 1200 only better because 1000 times faster.
want to switch to arm provide os as good as android.

@umisef

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umisef wrote: The one drawback to that is the lack of built-in non-volatile storage, combined with the boot loader only talking USB ...

What's about netboot ?
https://raspberrytips.com/network-boot-with-raspberry-pi/

---

I'm also using RPi4 professional, it's small, powerful, dirt cheap, has PIOs and it's MiPi interface is supported by many cameras, there is even a CM4 version that might have a better usability for industrial projects.

I was surprised to see many competitors in this market copying RasPi's form factor and IOs. You can even get RiscV modules using RasPi infrastructure. If you need much more performance switching to x86 systems might be a better option.

We want to try some i.MX93, & i.MX8 systems in the future, but I have my doubts.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 04-Feb-2024 at 02:15 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 04-Feb-2024 at 02:13 PM.

@OneTimer1

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What's about netboot ?

The Raspberry RP2040 is not a "full" Pi, it's a US$0.70 microcontroller. A ridiculously overpowered microcontroller, given the price, but a microcontroller nonetheless. So netboot is not really an option, what with there being no network...

The bare RP2040 doesn't have any permanent storage, and not even a unique ID (like a serial number or MAC). So everything has to come from software; And the preferred way to get software on there is through USB. The less advocated (but possibly much more useful) option is to, essentially, JTAG it in (called SWD, but pretty much the same).

The Raspberry Pi Pico, which is a small board combining the RP2040 with some flash, an LED, a pushbutton, a USB socket, and most importantly, a way to power it from USB, comes in at about US$4, which is still ridiculously cheap for what one gets.

As you can see, that's worlds apart from the Pi4, which is still rather expensive in comparison. And unlike the Pi5, the Pi4 has the VL805 USB controller, which, quite honestly, is a piece of excrement --- making any attempt to combine lots of RP2040s with a Pi4 rather an exercise in hair pulling.

So I am definitely hanging out for the CM5; We have at least one project in the pipeline it will be extremely suitable for.

@cdimauro

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cdimauro wrote: In fact, there's no NG o.s.: AROS, MorphOS, OS4, are all ports or reimplementation of the original o.s.. There's absolutelu nothing "NG", because all problems of the original o.s. are still there...

Seriously? :D Shouldn't laugh at this ignorant comment, but I'm just speechless. And if it was a joke, not a funny one and spreads false information.

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@jPV

Quote:

jPV wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: In fact, there's no NG o.s.: AROS, MorphOS, OS4, are all ports or reimplementation of the original o.s.. There's absolutelu nothing "NG", because all problems of the original o.s. are still there... Seriously? :D Shouldn't laugh at this ignorant comment, but I'm just speechless. And if it was a joke, not a funny one and spreads false information.

Ok, let's unpack that. What is "next generation" from the standpoint of a 32-bit, unprotected single-cpu platform?

- Multicore SMP
- Full memory protection
- 64-bit addressing

There are AROS derivatives that do some of these things, but nothing in the PPC sphere. Like it or not, OS4 and MorphOS are the same generation as 3.x/68k, they are just faster. All the new stuff is peripheral (figuratively and literally - peripheral changes and changes for peripherals).

This is not to deride either "NG" platform, it's just a reality check. There's very little they can do to become NG without breaking backwards compatibility or making some sort of sandbox for the older stuff that relies on unprotected, single threaded 32-bit (31 if you want to be really pedantic) addressing.

Last edited by Karlos on 05-Feb-2024 at 11:53 AM.

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@Karlos

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Karlos wrote: @jPV Ok, let's unpack that. What is "next generation" from the standpoint of a 32-bit, unprotected single-cpu platform? - Multicore SMP - Full memory protection - 64-bit addressing

In which rule-book it is told that these define the "next generation"? What would be needed for 3rd generation then? Are there this drastic changes, for example, in the PC or console world between generations?

After all, these operating systems that we commonly call "next generation" on Amiga, are running on whole new CPU architectures, have fundamendal improvements in core components to match more modern standards (new memory systems that don't slow down by fragmentation, new layers implementations that don't slow down by having more windows open, 64 bit DOS support everywhere, whole new desktop environments, re-designed intuition, new media streaming systems, etc.), and of course lots of bundled and improved stuff from graphics drivers to USB, TCP/IP, Firewire stacks, etc. There's practically nothing that wouldn't have been improved somehow compared to the original 68k operating system releases.

I just can't see why these couldn't be called as the next generation (2nd) and if/when we get the mentioned features call it as 3rd generation, but fine if you don't want to call it like that. It is still utter underestimation to call these new operating systems just as "reimplementations of the original o.s." and to tell that "ALL problems of the original o.s. are still there", because those statements simply aren't true. I just can't believe someone can claim so.

Last edited by jPV on 05-Feb-2024 at 02:31 PM.

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@jPV

Quote:

In which rule-book it is told that these define the "next generation"?

Well, let's see. How about the rule book of "common sense"?

You have a hardware platform both defined and limited by 32 (31)-bit address space, uniprocessor model with no memory protection, all widely recognised as shortcomings well before the migration to PPC.

If common sense is not the rule book, then what should count as a generational leap over the above?

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@Karlos

You don’t seam to care about size of data bus or the cpu register size.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Well, given that most CPU architectures tend to use integer registers in a general way (for either addresses or data), what do you suppose a 64-bit addressing model implies regarding register and bus width?

The point stands. There's nothing revolutionary about "NG" to warrant the moniker. I'm sorry if I don't happen to regard running your 64-bit multicore CPU natively hobbled as "next gen" because it supports better graphics cards. I'm sorry I don't happen to regard having a native 64-bit capable SMP capable all singing, all dancing HAL abstracting microkernel as "next gen" when it only thing it runs is a single 32-bit box that has all the same 32-bit limitations as the "competition".

OS4 and MorphOS have many nice features for the end user but it's all incremental. Show me a single thing they can do that is impossible to do on 3.x 68K system (include in that UAE, PiStorm, Amithlon etc). And by impossible, I don't mean runs exclusive software that isn't available for the 68K like 3DNova, Reggae or Wayfairer, etc, I mean something that something that is completely and forever out of reach of said 3.x 68K system because it relies on a generational leap over it architecturally.

Maybe then you'll understand why some of us don't regard it as next generation.

Last edited by Karlos on 05-Feb-2024 at 06:55 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 05-Feb-2024 at 06:54 PM.

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