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olegil
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 11:42:29
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Elite Member |
Joined: 22-Aug-2003 Posts: 5895
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| @terminills
I don't think a drinking game based on wawa's negative postings would be very healthy in the long run. _________________ This weeks pet peeve: Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean. |
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olegil
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 11:41:13
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Elite Member |
Joined: 22-Aug-2003 Posts: 5895
From: Work | | |
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| @wawa
Except you had zero questions. _________________ This weeks pet peeve: Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean. |
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terminills
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 11:40:08
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AROS Core Developer |
Joined: 8-Mar-2003 Posts: 1472
From: Unknown | | |
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| @olegil
Is this a drinking game? So is it two drinks for "would expect" and one for the rest? I'm so confused could you explain the rules please? :D
_________________ Support AROS sponsor a developer.
"AROS is prolly illegal ~ Evert Carton" intentionally quoted out of context for dramatic effect |
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wawa
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 11:33:51
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Elite Member |
Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @olegil
yes. i think that this is a decent way of formulating doubts. im certain the involved know better than me, therefore i ask. |
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olegil
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 11:28:53
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Elite Member |
Joined: 22-Aug-2003 Posts: 5895
From: Work | | |
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| @wawa
2x would expect 1x should(n't) 1x don't know 1x expect 1x doubt
Wow. That was a very informed post. _________________ This weeks pet peeve: Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean. |
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Spectre660
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 11:11:14
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Elite Member |
Joined: 5-Jun-2005 Posts: 3918
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Zylesea
I wonder if the Tabor would beat the Peg II in the Mplayer Prometheus-trailer benchmark. _________________ Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card |
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wawa
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 11:04:55
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Elite Member |
Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @TrevorDick
Quote:
The demo at the show was Debian 8 running an HD video concurrently with the 3D Gears demo and an animated Libre Office presentation. |
i would expect linux to decode and play video content on the gpu, the machine merely shoving video data through the bus. also i would expect linux to have working hardware mesa/gallium acceleration, so it shouldnt have problem with playing the simplest gl demo. i dont know what the libre office presentation do, but i expect that, similarly to video, displaying demo of office software isnt demanding what concerns the cpu or fpu. taking into account that so far i know neither full gpu, nor 3d acceleration, nor even libre office is available for os4, i doubt that such a presentation gives a reliable estimation about, how os4 would run on particular hardware.Last edited by wawa on 15-Oct-2015 at 11:05 AM.
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Zylesea
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 10:56:39
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Elite Member |
Joined: 16-Mar-2004 Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG | | |
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| @cdimauro
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cdimauro wrote: @Zylesea
Quote:
Zylesea wrote:
Will it? Lets see. AMCC 460 does 2 operations/per cock per clock, e500v2 does 2.8. And it is higher clocked than AMCC460 1200 vs 1100MHz. Both have 32-32kb L1 cache and 256 kb L2 cache. For pure integer performance the P102x clearly leads here (2200MIPS vs. 3360MIPS).
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AFAIK the e500v2 is able to decode and execute up to 2 instructions per clock cycle. Exactly like the AMCC 460.
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Indeed I messed up a number, but you were wrong, too :The e500v2 core does 2.4 MIPS/cycle/core. It's 2880 MIPS (P1022 one core@1.2 GHz) vs. 2200MIPS (AMCC 460ex 1.1 GHz). In pure integer calculations the P1022 should be up to 1.31times fatser than the Sam460ex._________________ My programs: via.bckrs.de MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001) |
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olegil
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 10:09:31
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Elite Member |
Joined: 22-Aug-2003 Posts: 5895
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| @Dandy
P1022 and T1042 are not pin compatible, so it wouldn't be a CPU socket but a CPU daughtercard slot/socket deal.
Since it doesn't seem to have this from the pictures, I think we can safely assume the answer is "no".
Personally I feel it should have been a T series by now, but I guess we play the cards we're dealt. _________________ This weeks pet peeve: Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean. |
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olegil
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 9:32:20
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Elite Member |
Joined: 22-Aug-2003 Posts: 5895
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| @cdimauro
How on earth would you run 64bit Linux on a 32bit e500v2? _________________ This weeks pet peeve: Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean. |
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gregthecanuck
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 8:19:15
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Cult Member |
Joined: 30-Dec-2003 Posts: 846
From: Vancouver, Canada | | |
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| Apologies I'm taking this thread even more off-topic but I need to address some of cdimauro's comments...
cdimauro wrote: Quote:
In short, the difference is that Windows (and many other o.eses) never publicly exposed its data structures, and used some abstraction mechanism (handles, void pointers, getter & setter) to offer an "opaque" interface to the applications. |
Um, wrong. There are numerous structures that are used in the win32 API. These are passed in/out via reference all over the place. Want window info? You get a structure. Want system info? You get a structure. Want to create a control? You pass in a structure. Want network or user information? You get a structure. etc...
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This way, it's possible to completely change the implementation without breaking the API, and it's also possible to make a 32-64 bit tunneling, like you reported. |
It is my understanding that the WOW64 subsystem takes care of win32 applications running on win64 systems and does the API mapping internally.
The structure definitions are the same but of course things like pointer sizes differ on win32 and win64.
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I make another example. Windows 3 introduced the first (sub)version of the famous Win32 APIs, but such APIs are internally "tunneled" (dispatched) to the Win16 implementation. The tunneling provided a conversion mechanism to transparently send the Win32 requests to the Win16 subsystem, converting the parameters (and the return values) back and forth. That happened for all Windows 9x version. On Windows NT, instead, the Win16 requests are tunneled to the Win32 subsystem. All this was possible due to the abstract interface provided by the o.s. to the application.
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Nothing abstract about the interface. It is simply structures and API calls or messages.
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Unfortunately the Amiga o.s. hadn't such good design practice, since the used (even private!) data structures were completely published. This means that (usually) it's not possible to exchange (with a tunnel mechanism) data structures between the 32 and the 64-bit subsystems. |
I see no reason why similar methods as those done on Windows would not work on an Amiga OS. It may involve providing both 32 and 64 bit interfaces in the libraries, or some other method.
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Think about a Screen structure which was allocated by (for) a 64-bit application: you cannot pass it to a 32-bit application. |
Windows has the same limitation. 64 bit applications cannot call 32 bit DLLs.
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That's the reason why the Amiga o.s. never had the chance to be modernized, since it means rewriting the existing apps. |
Sorry but this just isn't true in my opinion.
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Dandy
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 8:16:33
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Joined: 24-Mar-2003 Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany | | |
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| @cdimauro
Quote:
cdimauro wrote: @Dandy
... In short, the difference is that Windows (and many other o.eses) ... All this was possible due to the abstract interface provided by the o.s. to the application.
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Thanks for the explanation.
Quote:
cdimauro wrote:
Unfortunately the Amiga o.s. hadn't such good design practice, ... That's the reason why the Amiga o.s. never had the chance to be modernized, since it means rewriting the existing apps.
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Then I don't understand why this wasn't changed when they had to re-write the OS to create OS 4. My POV is that it is better just to re-write the OS once (properly) than to re-write all existing apps.
Cdimauro, I have another question that I already asked in my post #225, but got no reply to it yet:
Well, pavlor wrote in post #23: Quote:
Quote:
pavlor wrote: @imagodespira
... Interesting enough P1022 SoC is more expensive than (much faster and fuly compatible) T1042 SoC ...
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I'd like to know if Tabor comes with a CPU socket, so that the P1022 CPU could easily be replaced with a T1042, which should solve the problems?
_________________ Ciao
Dandy __________________________________________ If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein) |
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Hondo
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 7:06:49
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Super Member |
Joined: 10-Apr-2003 Posts: 1370
From: Denmark | | |
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| @TrevorDick
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Despite what you might have read in this thread NO pricing for the tabor hardware was announced. The speculated numbers quoted are also vey high.
The demo at the show was Debian 8 running an HD video concurrently with the 3D Gears demo and an animated Libre Office presentation. |
Sounds more than powerful enough for me as my first OS4 machine
BRING IT ON _________________ On Planet Boing Trevor is God |
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cdimauro
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 5:54:01
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Elite Member |
Joined: 29-Oct-2012 Posts: 3650
From: Germany | | |
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| @pavlor
Quote:
pavlor wrote: @cdimauro
Quote:
and I think also QEMU performance should increase, because now it can run in 64-bit mode using the extended set of registers. |
In theory, we don´t have new qemu.dll yet.
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WinUAE 3.2.0 Beta 16 (64Bit) (14 October 2015)
QEMU 2.4 update: Includes both 32-bit and 64-bit versions (14 Ottobre 2015)
Finally feature-complete. Including 64-bit JIT and 64-bit PPC support
- 64-bit JIT FPU rounding mode fix and other 64-bit FPU fixes. (Frode) - 64-bit QEMU PPC plugin fixed (Frode)
Software evolves much faster than hardware. |
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cdimauro
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 5:45:14
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Elite Member |
Joined: 29-Oct-2012 Posts: 3650
From: Germany | | |
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| @Zylesea
Quote:
Zylesea wrote: @Birbo
Quote:
Birbo wrote: Tabor will:
1. Be much faster than Sam460 (AmigaOS)
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Will it? Lets see. AMCC 460 does 2 operations/per cock per clock, e500v2 does 2.8. And it is higher clocked than AMCC460 1200 vs 1100MHz. Both have 32-32kb L1 cache and 256 kb L2 cache. For pure integer performance the P102x clearly leads here (2200MIPS vs. 3360MIPS).
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AFAIK the e500v2 is able to decode and execute up to 2 instructions per clock cycle. Exactly like the AMCC 460.
Nevertheless, it might be more efficient than the latter on doing that (more execution units, reservation stations, load/store queues, better branch predictor and/or with more entries, better TLB caches and/or more entries, and so on), so presenting better performances with real code.
Anyway, all that cannot lift the upper limit of executing a maximum of 2 instructions per clock. |
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cdimauro
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 15-Oct-2015 5:35:33
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Elite Member |
Joined: 29-Oct-2012 Posts: 3650
From: Germany | | |
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| @saimon69: yes, sandboxing is the only possibility to keep the legacy on a modern, Amiga inspired, o.s..
Sandboxing plus a certain degree of resources sharing between the two worlds, to be precise. How much sharing depends on the development of tools like emumiga or vamos. |
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saimon69
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 14-Oct-2015 22:20:38
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Regular Member |
Joined: 7-Dec-2007 Posts: 307
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TrevorDick
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 14-Oct-2015 22:06:24
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Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Dec-2004 Posts: 2678
From: Wellington | | |
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| @Templario
Despite what you might have read in this thread NO pricing for the tabor hardware was announced. The speculated numbers quoted are also vey high.
The demo at the show was Debian 8 running an HD video concurrently with the 3D Gears demo and an animated Libre Office presentation.
TrevorD
_________________ No, I don't need no reason, I'm just breezin' |
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cdimauro
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 14-Oct-2015 21:35:06
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Elite Member |
Joined: 29-Oct-2012 Posts: 3650
From: Germany | | |
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| @Dandy
Quote:
Dandy wrote: @cdimauro
In post #210 you wrote: Quote:
cdimauro wrote: @bennymee
... Last but not least, Linux (and apps) supports 64-bit (thanks to the 64-bit general purpose registers), so double precision can be supported (with DPESFP) as well.
OS4, instead, runs in 32-bit mode, ...
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and in post #215 you wrote: Quote:
cdimauro wrote: @Tuxedo
... No, but the same should happen with the applications, because you cannot run the same binaries ...
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I know your second posting referred to SPE/DPE-SFP, but I also read several times with regard to making OS4.x 64 Bit that this would require a recompilation of the apps.
And this is exactly what I don't understand.
For example, here at work I have an Dell OptiPlex 2010 with 64 Bit quad core cpu, running 64 Bit version of Win7. I had absolutely no problems to run Xabier Payet's 'SnapShoter' on it, although 'SnapShoter' is a Hollywood program compiled for Win32.
There was no need to re-compile it for 64 Bit - the 32 Bit version simply worked in the 64 Bit environment. It is completely beyond me why this should not be possible with 64 Bit AmigaOS4.x and 32 Bit Amiga apps...
Can you explain this to me, please? |
In short, the difference is that Windows (and many other o.eses) never publicly exposed its data structures, and used some abstraction mechanism (handles, void pointers, getter & setter) to offer an "opaque" interface to the applications.
This way, it's possible to completely change the implementation without breaking the API, and it's also possible to make a 32-64 bit tunneling, like you reported.
I make another example. Windows 3 introduced the first (sub)version of the famous Win32 APIs, but such APIs are internally "tunneled" (dispatched) to the Win16 implementation. The tunneling provided a conversion mechanism to transparently send the Win32 requests to the Win16 subsystem, converting the parameters (and the return values) back and forth. That happened for all Windows 9x version. On Windows NT, instead, the Win16 requests are tunneled to the Win32 subsystem. All this was possible due to the abstract interface provided by the o.s. to the application.
Unfortunately the Amiga o.s. hadn't such good design practice, since the used (even private!) data structures were completely published. This means that (usually) it's not possible to exchange (with a tunnel mechanism) data structures between the 32 and the 64-bit subsystems.
Think about a Screen structure which was allocated by (for) a 64-bit application: you cannot pass it to a 32-bit application.
That's the reason why the Amiga o.s. never had the chance to be modernized, since it means rewriting the existing apps. |
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broadblues
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Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon Posted on 14-Oct-2015 20:15:50
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Amiga Developer Team |
Joined: 20-Jul-2004 Posts: 4446
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| @itix
Okay just for fun whilst preparing my meal I switched the root to LIBS: and ran again. No recursion in subdirs though life is too short and that script is suprisingly slow!
Total: 131 Floats: 26
filesysbox.library avcodec.library.debug ixemul.library_5109 avcodec.library bz2.library diskio.library.bak application.library mpega.library minigl.library_22 Warp3D.library.wazp aifxjpegload.library avi.library minigl.library.bak xadmaster.library diskio.library bzip2.library jpeg.library minigl.library powerpc.library xvidcore.library mglut.library minigl.library_23 avcodec.library_53.611 application.library_rigo ixemul.library openjpeg.library
68k ones
gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:rexxdossupport.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:reqtools.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:plugin.library_: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:configio.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:listtools.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:unitconv.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:post.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:wizard.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:dbplayer.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:ptplay.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:guigfx.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:render.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:zlib.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:c4d.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:c4dpic.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:digitafont.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:digitaintellifont.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:digitapostscript.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:digitatruetype.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:rexxmathlib.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:rexxsupport.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:triton.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:freedb.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:rexxsyslib.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:mathtrans.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:newicon.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:resource.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:mathffp.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:mathieeesingtrans.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:fxWARP.library: File format not recognized gcc:bin/objdump: LIBS:bullet.library: File format not recognized
Ofcourse there's classes gadgets datatypes etc_________________ BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad |
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