Only Amiga makes it possible...

_________________
Amiga 1200 desktop. Apollo 030/50 Mhz 8mb ram + ClassicWB + Wb 3.1
Amiga 500 + ACA500plus 8mb + 30gb CF
Raspberry Pi 3b+ and Amibian 1.4
Mac Mini G4 1GB Ram with the butterfly!!

@vox

Quote:

vox wrote: As much as I see in About, TW doesn`t say any beta or anything, and it came as default browser. Its also advertised as such on amigaos.net

For someone who complains about lack of documentation, you should read what you have... The TW readme clearly states "Welcome to Release Candidate 3 of Timberwolf 4.0.1" they are the FIRST words in the FIRST paragraph. "Release candidate" to me means beta as it hasn't officially been released, it's just a sneak preview.

You would also have seen it says "Timberwolf is a cooperative effort of the Timberwolf Amiga Bounty project" on page 3, nothing to do with Hyperion.

copy and paste has worked since beta 4 but text only and iirc you have to use the ctrl key not the amigakey

My advice is to switch to decaff, use your mind before your mouth (or fingers in this case). research to see if there is any blame and where it belongs berfore blaming the first thing you think of. If you really have to blame someone write it in a clear & calm way with an editor, don't send it, check it the next day when you have got over your little tantrum, rewrite it then post it...

'nuff said, no more will be...

_________________
OS4 Rocks
X1000 beta tester, Sam440 Flex (733)

Visit the Official OS4 Support Site for more help.

It may be that your sole purpose is to serve as a warning to others.

@Severin

TW is not best example as it "isnt official"
but is just another indicator of half done job
which is Hyperion trademark. Even X2000
will be in simlar situation with beta OS.

There are far more advanced places such as 2 years minimal
guarantee in EU (not 1 year return to basis with no guarantee paper),
product is not complete since software doesn't fully support software
(even you are warned about this it is still selling incomplete product),
I have been waiting 3 months for delivery since payement and yet
got not manual and OS box (products were not delivered as purchased)
and so on.
Top cherry is blocking the support to product, which alone
is enough.

Surely, I still don`t want to go to court, if Hyperion is willing
to shift priorities to users and do those few incomplete
things by New Year (not 3D, OS 4.2 and SMP but TW, CFE/Card driver,
NTFS driver and onboard ethernet, in SAM460 case onboard SATA).

If the developers and support had better attitude to their users,
there would be no need for court enforcement of consumer rights.

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

@Kronos

Quote:

a) your not in the EU b) good chance that the UK won't be in the EU in a few years /me applauds both

Product was purchased in EU not local market and is subject to their consumer laws.
Serbia is in process of association and is adjusting legislative.

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

@djrikki

Quote:

Contact page on AmigaOS.net open to everyone.

Good to know, but whom do we contact there?

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

Timberwolf was a nice project, to bad it ended with a version that freezes often on start and crashes on exit (my x1000). The good thing is we have mui-owb all this years but it shows its ages today.

Last edited by Kicko on 02-Nov-2013 at 05:38 PM.

@vox

have they really guaranteed it (at best in written form) or was it just marketing/plans for future and so on? Who has announced it? Officially from Hyperion or from Steve Solie or someone else?

Ben H. is attorney so I assume that he is carefully with contracts. And as far as I know is the person/company responsible you bought the product from. So either Amikit or A-eon. I am not sure if it is theoretic possible to sue Hyperion for it. Hyperion says they are not responsible for drivers (propably also in contracts) so all driver related would be Acube or A-eon. Guarantee also is Acube/A-eon. But I do not believe that you will succeed and would only waste your money.

@vox

Do you know there are only 2 paid programmers writing an entire OS for 8+ mobo's most of which are custom hardware that a lot of the time doesn't have any information about the chips (eg. just switching on some of the sound chips) then working on Gallium, TW in their spare time etc. T & HJ have worked their arses off for us over the last 10+ years. many many volunteers have helped out in their spare time to get Os4 as good as it is. although over the years many have left because of certain users moaning and complaining about everything and never being satified because OS4 isn't all powerful, bright and shiney like other OS's with multi billion budgets. Writing code is easy, making it work, and optimising it takes the most time though, oftem 99% of time is spent debugging.

You may have been waiting for 3 months... doesn't matter.. you bought AmigaOS 4.2 and it can't be delivered to you until it has been released.. You where given a free copy of 4.1 to use now though...

Blocking the support to the product is debateable, you are temporarily banned from the forums for being an A******E, your fault... You think you have been denied upgrades but you have no proof as there haven't been any...

Every company reserves the right to kick out abusive customers, even if they're just annoying other customers.

user priorities are useless, every user is different, CF card driver is probablt very very low priority as it's hardly ever used except for linux kernels which you can do from linux anyway. NTFS drivers will need a lot of testing, It could be released too early because of your pressure and destroy all your data due to an undiscovered bug, data security overrides users childish impatience every time. Onboard ethernet... you were given an alternative to use until it's fixed, so no problem there.

If the users respected the developers and understood the enormous amount of work they do then they might not moan so much.

The attitude of the devs and support reflects the attitude of the user. I am frequently in contact with them and never have a problem. learn you lesson, wait out your ban and calm down.

_________________
OS4 Rocks
X1000 beta tester, Sam440 Flex (733)

Visit the Official OS4 Support Site for more help.

It may be that your sole purpose is to serve as a warning to others.

@vox

European union law does not know quaranty,just product liability.

If you try to go legal way, best what you can achieve is annulment of purchase. These kind of things are so common, that they never get to court. For good reason there is mechanism in EU to avoid courts to be buried with these kind of cases.

In Finland that instance tend to be customers best friend, but it changed after EU. They just read the book and make conclusions. Thats it.

If you try to go court, you have to get thru normal mechanism first.

Side effect you get permaban to one or other forum. Or both. If you think that you can blackmale to get things happen faster, you are wrong... :) World doesnt work like that. Be asshole and you will be surprised, how far well better others are in that. _Just_in_general_ , not you or hyperion or anyone pointed.

If something is not delivered from original purchase, you have right to get them. Ask from shop by mail. They have to deliver it.

Human right violation. You can call or write to Amnesty. We have seen in last 25 years human rights violation here and there, in large scale even in Europe. So for respect for real victims you should forget human right in this case, I think.

Sorry to say. If you lost your temper after three months of waiting, you made mistake. But it is impossible to get everything fast. Dev group is too small for that.

Other color supporters are ready to support you, for their own purposes. It makes more noise but doesnt help you any.

So chill down and write to people who can help. Ask information what you need. In politely manner.

Bye.

Last edited by mlehto on 02-Nov-2013 at 09:42 PM.

EU law dont guarantee liability ...

No, companies does and laws ensure how they must provide
user care. If they don`t they can loose "working license" or pay
severe overall penalties, not just to individuals.

Also, class suit exits.


@OlafS25

Its nicely wrapped out of responsibility mechanism,
where sadly I have to go for AEON, since I purchased their product
and its software side of AEON AmigaOne x1000.

Since Steven doesn`t work for Hyperion, there is no liability there
but then again how can unemployed person ban me from official support,
that also might be legally risky? Things can get messy once in court.

Surely, return of package could be easily negotiated,
but that is not the goal.

@severin

Quote:

You would also have seen it says "Timberwolf is a cooperative effort of the Timberwolf Amiga Bounty project" on page 3, nothing to do with Hyperion.

Yeah, yeah, nothing to do with no one. Surely you agree, its big mistake
they were allowed to collect money before finishing the product.
Same "I didn`t do it" strategy is explained in rationalizations of delays
in Stevens private mail I published to get banned.

Quote:

copy and paste has worked since beta 4 but text only and iirc you have to use the ctrl key not the amigakey My advice is to switch to decaff, use your mind before your mouth (or fingers in this case). research to see if there is any blame and where it belongs berfore blaming the first thing you think of. If you really have to blame someone write it in a clear & calm way with an editor, don't send it, check it the next day when you have got over your little tantrum, rewrite it then post it... 'nuff said, no more will be...

Dropped cofee to tea. Thanks for the tip.

Blame belongs to treating users like nothing
and ceasing them official support as well as some glitches
in liability of AEON for the product software side, as well
as in some minor mistakes by AmigaKit in my purchase.
Surely I will explore it for legal "threat" to the best of legal definitions.

@OlafS25

Quote:

I am self-deployed and had personal experience over time with legal issues. You must be careful what is written and what you just expect. Vox thinks he has the legal rights to get certain things including 4.2. (and that soon) and I think he mixes real legal issues and his expectations. I had assumed that too but in a legal sense he should find it (at least 4.2. license) in his documents, if not he can only hope that "promises" are held.

Basically I don`t expect OS 4.2 at all, I expect to finish OS 4.1.x (card driver, ethernet driver, CFE update, TW 4 and NTFS driver) before moving onto OS 4.2 and that is all.

@Severin

Quote:

@vox Do you know there are only 2 paid programmers writing an entire OS for 8+ mobo's most of which are custom hardware that a lot of the time doesn't have any information about the chips (eg. just switching on some of the sound chips) then working on Gallium, TW in their spare time etc.

Yes I do and I would pay more for machine, if they would finally employ at least
one more paid person. And these two persons should not take any more projects.

Quote:

You may have been waiting for 3 months... doesn't matter.. you bought AmigaOS 4.2 and it can't be delivered to you until it has been released.. You where given a free copy of 4.1 to use now though...

No, I have paid 100 quid (more then ordinary copy price of X1000 OS 4.1.5 of 50-60 quid)
for OS 4.1 that doesn`t support some of basic board features like Compact card and onboard ethernet, with no liability but a promise of OS 4.2. I am more astonished by level of support to current and moving away from it, then in knowledge of waiting for OS 4.2 and surely the way
users requests on what they need are treated.

For example, Trevor is using onboard ethernet, but no one else can. It was said to be done
on AmiWest.

Quote:

You think you have been denied upgrades but you have no proof as there haven't been any...

No, I am denied of any updates for Quake 2, Hyperion and 2 AmigaOS 4.1 licenses from the
download section, which is well enough. How much is AmiUpdate dependednt on my account I will
know when you scream that there is some update.

Quote:

Every company reserves the right to kick out abusive customers, even if they're just annoying other customers.

Good. And you don`t see abusive company annoying their customers?

Quote:

Side effect you get permaban to one or other forum. Or both. If you think that you can blackmale to get things happen faster, you are wrong... :) World doesnt work like that. Be asshole and you will be surprised, how far well better others are in that. _Just_in_general_ , not you or hyperion or anyone pointed

If I read this well, its a threat of permanent ban from user support. More the marrier for
the reparations asked.

Quote:

Human right violation. You can call or write to Amnesty. We have seen in last 25 years human rights violation here and there, in large scale even in Europe. So for respect for real victims you should forget human right in this case, I think.

Yes, I have seen many over past 34 years on this planet. But you are wrong, consumer rights
are not basic 1st gen, but are in broader sense, human rights. Surely this isnt case for
Amnesty, but is for consumer protection associations in countries where AEON/Hyperion work.

Just as example:

- No customer support by phone
- No real adress and reg number of Hyperion at website
- Easy way to get banned from support without warn and by non employed personnel
- Unfinished product on sale with less guarantee then minimal level of EU standards
- Some elements can be claimed as fraud, as user is promised features that aren`t delivered
- No professional end user support, flamming support requests and limiting users rights
to express opinions

Quote:

I am not sure if it is theoretic possible to sue Hyperion fo

You can`t since product is made by AEON in this case. Its nicely written
round around, but it seems it has a lot of holes, when compared
how real companies and support operate and what are legal requirements
to send end user products.

Surely, I would best avoid it because I have better things in life to do.

But seems there is no other way to let some people know users
needs to be treated better. Strange days - most of users were
developers and there isn`t enough developers. If there are ordinary
users they get shunned.

Whom do you make OS for if not for needs users express (that they
need in daily use) and how you will build its future in such relations?

Quote:

So chill down and write to people who can help. Ask information what you need. In politely manner.

Tried that in first place, didnt help at all.

And I am not satisfied with Stevens answers that
just say "I am pretty not much responsible of anything"

Why then have a nice title of developer lead?

Also, if you completely ignore reasonable users suggestions,
you do OS for yourself (Microsoft style). As example, once I
demanded NTFS driver (2-3 times) Steven was amazed why
I do need it at all, and then he said "don`t try to shift development priorities".
Thread locked.

Today, its great idea, privately funded.

If it was more effort to listen to users it would be done by now,
and could be community funded.

I was willing to give my little share of money for something I need.

That is a major difference, I would support development of what
I need but developers wouldn`t support their users, in small
important things of everyday life.

In the end, now I have to make threats to influence the development.
Never expected that in life, but one must do what one believes
is right - same for me as for them.

@Spectre660

Quote:

Who said this ? http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=38060&forum=32&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0#715534

Me. But do we know anything on both TW 4 and TW 16+ today? Was any of both promises kept?

Last edited by vox on 03-Nov-2013 at 06:59 AM.
Last edited by vox on 03-Nov-2013 at 06:50 AM.
Last edited by vox on 03-Nov-2013 at 01:15 AM.

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

@Tomas

Quote:

Even if he broke every forum rule that should not affect his ability to download updates for a product he paid money for.

Surely. Its even stated in forum TOS too. So the one that has done it should
be banned for month too. And that alone is heavy breach of end user rights
enough for court.

On other hand, Steven provides very little info publicly and directs
user to ask by mails. If some development status is returned to public,
band the user. Real support policy.

On updates I ask being "minor"

Onboard ethernet vs RTL card - Its faster, more reliable, saves space
and cables and frees important PCI slot

Compact flash - currently is 128MB FAT16 card that is used
mainly to handle most important Linux kernels. Not being able
to see it from AmigaOS is great reduction in some situations e.g
Linux side being kernel panicking or unable to boot. Also, that
is nice drive that could handle 4GB+ cards and hold some other
vital files off the HDD.

CFE update to read EXT4 and FAT32 is linked to above as
that limits the card use. As well as it might have more commands
and some basic menus like Uboot. But its abandoned even
manual says its Hyperion to maintain.

Timberwolf - Should I explain why decent browser is important
and MUI-OWB being fast and well, is unlikely to be developed further?
Plus this one was paid development even unofficial. Its better not to
have browser then to have one that works until some critical point
of download, save, bookmarks etc.

NTFS driver - Thing I ve been naging on quite long time.
Now that is privately funded development while it could
be community funded by now. Privately funded I stress
because again its free of liability, good to avoid legal issues,
but then again, what is developed officially and responsible
these days? This should also change. Its should all be
Hyperion projects outsourced.

Its not unrealistic list, beside improvement of user support,
and beside progress on other fronts, is summary of basic
needs of X1000 user that are lacking, not just me. I am considerate
of magnitude of 3D driver and OS 4.2 overall development, even
I kind of prepaid it (non existing OS 4.2 license, and soon to be 2 RadeonHD drivers)

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

@vox

Quote:

For example, Trevor is using onboard ethernet, but no one else can. It was said to be done

One word: Betatesting.


Good luck on your new Holy Crusade, I´m sure you will enjoy it as much as your War against CommodoreUSA.

@pavlor

Quote:

you will enjoy it as much as your War against CommodoreUSA.

Funny, I thought the same - a new victim and a new crusade. Where's my popcorn?

_________________
X1000|II/G4|440ep|2000/060|2000/040|1000

@pavlor

Quote:

One word: Betatesting. Good luck on your new Holy Crusade, I´m sure you will enjoy it as much as your War against CommodoreUSA.

In Hyperions world beta testing for few boards (or in this case just one)
takes from months to years. And they never ask for more beta testers.
I would like to beta test it.

Thanks for good luck wishes, they don`t sound honest, but nevermind.

I am no catholic church, but there is a spiritual and legal fight where needed,
not just on IT field.

Well in this case I don`t want crusade, and I don`t want to bring Hyperion down,
but to make them more serious. What is OS development team leader doing
if all development is out of house just as small example.

Also, this might be longer campaign where I intend to get
more users, and real court case. Good to prepare for life in EU

You might use that parallel to present me as complete psycho,
but that is far from reality. In both cases I was driven to it,
because of selfish (not user oriented), high nosed and subhuman treatment by
companies and their representatives in quest for what ... in CUSA case I know
it was high profit, in Hyperions I can`t really tell.

Well, if the result in past was good, they should tremble in fear of Rasta drums

Soddomah Gommorah
Soul Warrior
and Belly of Beast

Sadly, different song we could sing:

For years
I was there for you
believing you will Glow some light

Last edited by vox on 03-Nov-2013 at 10:26 AM.
Last edited by vox on 03-Nov-2013 at 10:25 AM.

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

If the product doesn't satisfy the specs, you can RMA it, and the story ends here. I think that another post-amigan will be happy to get your machine.

Regards your "adventure", well, you cannot say that you were not informed of the situation. As pavlov stated, your holy war to defend your faith is well know. You simple have got what you sowed. And, again, don't tell me that you weren't conscious about what it may happen buying such machine...

@cdimauro

Echoing what cdimauro said.

Vox, you have been a Amigaworld member since 2005, and the development pace and methods of Hyperion shouldnt a suprise to you at this point.
Im a old Commodore/c64/Amiga user, and are somewhat intrested in the NG line of OS and Hardware, but I doubt Ive been paying as close attention to the Amiga development as you have, but still you seem suprised about the "lack of progress/speed of development". I just dont get how someone frequenting this and other forums can be blind to the realities.

I wouldnt mind getting a NG machine, but as it stands atm I just cant justify the cost vs what it delivers in usability. Thats my personal point of view, and I read posts from users on this forum that are very happy with their NG machine. They knew what they bought, it suited their needs and are looking forward to what is to come (at whatever pace that may be).

Im quite puzzled at this whole thread.

Quote:

Severin wrote: @vox Do you know there are only 2 paid programmers writing an entire OS for 8+ mobo's most of which are custom hardware that a lot of the time doesn't have any information about the chips (eg. just switching on some of the sound chips) then working on Gallium, TW in their spare time etc. T & HJ have worked their arses off for us over the last 10+ years. many many volunteers have helped out in their spare time to get Os4 as good as it is. although over the years many have left because of certain users moaning and complaining about everything and never being satified because OS4 isn't all powerful, bright and shiney like other OS's with multi billion budgets. Writing code is easy, making it work, and optimising it takes the most time though, oftem 99% of time is spent debugging.

Just a quick notice: if you (not you, but as a general people) are wasting 99% of the time debugging it, there's something VERY WRONG in your software development.

The debugger is the LAST tool that a coder has to use to solve his problems. It's very important, can save your "life", and it's an absolutely needed tool, but it's also the LAST thing that you've to use.

If it's normal to spend so much time using a debugger, on debugging a software in general, I don't have problems understanding why the development time is huge and/or the quality of the product is poor...

@Severin

Quote:

Severin wrote: @vox Do you know there are only 2 paid programmers writing an entire OS for 8+ mobo's most of which are custom hardware that a lot of the time doesn't have any information about the chips (eg. just switching on some of the sound chips)

Hi Severin,

Hope all is well with you. I'd like to thank you for sending me your spare OS4 pre-release back in ~2007-ish when I acquired a A1-SE with no OS. Such things are remembered and appreciated.

I'm a little confused as to how custom-built motherboards, specced out by the developers and supported in close communication with the manufacturer, could lack in documentation though.
Surely that is the main arguement for supporting custom hardware, and against supporting 3rd party hardware (eg mac).

Last edited by Boot_WB on 03-Nov-2013 at 11:16 AM.

_________________
Troll - n., A disenfranchised former potential customer who remains interested enough to stay informed and express critical opinions.
opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

@cdimauro

Quote:

Regards your "adventure", well, you cannot say that you were not informed of the situation. As pavlov stated, your holy war to defend your faith is well know. You simple have got what you sowed. And, again, don't tell me that you weren't conscious about what it may happen buying such machine...

There is no intent to sell it. I like the machine and I am constantly upgrading it
on hardware and software side.

I knew it all, except that developers are such .... ____________ you fill tje blanks.

I will use my end user rights and knowledge of what isn`t finished
to fight it in court, unless support improves.

@Overflow

Quote:

They knew what they bought, it suited their needs and are looking forward to what is to come (at whatever pace that may be).

Re read the thread, I am not satisfied not only with even small crumbs
being delayed, but that X1000 support (CFE, Compact card) is left behind
and that advanced features like 3D drivers, Gallium etc. are also after X2000
(even X2000 will come with OS 4.1.7 - in fact beta OS for it).

I am especially not satisfied with way user opinions and requests
are treated. Support forum is used as promo or developers forum,
treating constructive criticism and questions like sub-humans.

There are few small issues even with AmiKit, which used to be high end pros.

@Boot_WB

Quote:

I'm a little confused as to how custom-built motherboards, specced out by the developers and supported in close communication with the manufacturer, could lack in documentation though. Surely that is the main arguement for supporting custom hardware, and against supporting 3rd party hardware (eg ma

Even not being a developer, fully agree. Hyperion had board since late 2010,
and couldn`t fix ethernet, advance with CFE and do a compact flash driver.

So how long till we can talk to the boss and get just little crumbs?

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

@vox

Fact is Vox you put yourself in debt for 5 years, by the end you are spending over €9,000 on a machine that has less performance than a €30 g4 mac in most ways, you have an operating system that after 3 years still lacks basics such as ethernet and audio drivers. Want graphics drivers? Sure you can have them for an extra €30... want os 4.2 when its out, sure another €120 please... wait you are complaining because it can't do basics like read NTFS disks? Ask for support and features and they are sarcastic, rude and ban you from the support forum for a machine you've just splashed out the best part of €10,000 for.

They are already moving on to new hardware, the x1000 is discontinued, when development moves on to the x2000 or whatever they will call it do you think they will devote any time to the x1000 when it was pretty much a flop? Even the sam 460 still lacks drivers after like 4 years. You're basically left with a €10,000 system that is now obsolete, and likely won't have much more resources dedicated to it. If you want to use it properly you have to run Linux, which you could run better on a machine fished out of a dumpster, I know it sucks to have wasted such hard earned money Vox, but cut your losses. Sell it to some other hapless OS4 fanboy and get a cheap PC to put AROS on or accept an offer from someone here to send you a G4 mac, pay the €80 and use MorphOS for your "NG fix".

_________________
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