@asymetrix

Quote:

then attach scripting support so we can automate and control apps.

Which opertaing system have you been using? AmigaOS has had this thing call ARexx for quite some time.....

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@asymetrix

+1 !!!!

Yepp - totally agree with you!

@broadblues

Quote:

Withput having writen a MUI app I can't make a fair comparison, all I xcan is I do not find it hard to get a Reaction GUI up and running.

I totally agree.

Coder

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@broadblues

Quote:

[quote] And when I dig it deeper there is no hierarchy. [quote] Heirachy of what?

In MUI application I have application object that has number of window objects and each window objects have number of GUI objects.

Quote:

As to low level rendering, well how are you going build a web page from gadgets? It's not going to happen, I doubt MUI-OWB does!

For plain web pages it is better avoid MUI based rendering. In this context I only mean tooltips in AWeb. I didnt know it was added later to baseline.

Quote:

As to msgport pointers and screen pointers you only need the former if you want to share one port between many windows, otherwise the window .class creates it;s own and the modern way to do screens is to pass the screenname, again another aspect of AWebs age.

Maybe I dont want to go low level? I know how low level Intuition programming works and why IDCMP ports should be shared and what complications there are. But it is irrelevant to my goal: creating a GUI.

Quote:

Look at SketchBlock if you want to see more advance Reaction programming in a modern context.

I took a look and I can see it is lot cleaner and better than AWeb.You still have more typing to do than I would have to, though ;) But apart from window handling (in MUI it is handled internally) it could be like a MUI app. There is in RA more manual work like specifying IDCMP flags and other stuff.

I guess RA supports screen notify now and rearranges windows automatically if Workbench screen is adjusted?

Last edited by itix on 26-Aug-2013 at 07:40 PM.
Last edited by itix on 26-Aug-2013 at 07:35 PM.

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@Kronos (from the other thread)

Quote:

APIs added in 3.5/9: - ReAction ......

It's 2013 and for example MorphOS still isn't able to feature something simple like a decent and feature-rich WB ... ah, sorry... Ambient Icon Information Requester like AmigaOS 3.9 's RAWBinfo (Reaction!). I'm struggling with this piece of ... suboptimal software ... since I got my Pegasos II with MorphOS 2.1 some years ago.

At least the more or less useless Ambient docks really got better with MorphOS 3.2 (you're da man! ) - but there's still a lot to do to be on par with AmigaOS 4.x AmiDock (Reaction!) or ToolManager (GadTools!). Even as a MorphOS developer (or user) it would be better to soft-pedal every now and then and try to reach 3.9's features in some regards. And there are more than those two. Everything else is propaganda.

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@itix

Quote:

I guess RA supports screen notify now and rearranges windows automatically if Workbench screen is adjusted?

Yes. "Adjustments" includes user changed themes, for example.

Last edited by cha05e90 on 26-Aug-2013 at 10:12 PM.

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@itix

It`s not a vs thing. Each GUI is as good as its applications it serves. Or even better, it`s up to the programmer to get the things done, as the GUI serves him (his needs, or if he feels at ease/familiar with it).
The final user should be happy with the final product, won`t matter which GUI was prefered.
Better have more programs available.

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@broadblues

OMG, Arexx is a dinosaur, Python is what the world is using -if that is not too old now.

Show me an app that will run a script and show me an automated tutorial of itself.

What I meant was ALL apps should have this feature from day 1 as default.

And because no one thought about an XML based GUI layout system its hard for us now to maintain multiple GUI systems or cross reference each other or even create automated text scripts and regression tools for it.

Not to mention automated tools for creating documentation,web, version comparisons.

Thats how much 'behind' we are unfortunately.

Last edited by asymetrix on 26-Aug-2013 at 11:25 PM.
Last edited by asymetrix on 26-Aug-2013 at 11:21 PM.
Last edited by asymetrix on 26-Aug-2013 at 11:17 PM.

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@Mazze
Quote:

Here is the reason why I prefer MUI over ReAction: FileX

FileX isn't MUI.

@asymetrix
Quote:

OMG, Arexx is a dinosaur, Python is what the world is using -if that is not too old now. Show me an app that will run a script and show me an automated tutorial of itself.

Wordworth.

Python under OS4 will interact with any AmigaOS application with an ARexx port. The language is irrelevant.

I don't know what possessed me to participate in this thread, but Cass is right: It doesn't matter what GUI toolkit is used. The user shouldn't even know or care. Unfortunately they all look different so it is easy to tell.

A couple of other points since I'm here:
* If you look on Aminet I can guarantee that GadTools-based apps are more numerous than MUI or ReAction.
* When loooking for ReAction apps you need to include ClassAct too.
* Most normal people don't bother to mention if their program needs ReAction, as a requirement of OS3.5+ means the user has it anyway.
* Ditto for MUI if you're targetting OS4 (or MOS or AROS presumably, don't know or care)
* Almost no commercial software uses MUI. I wonder why that is?

That's all I have to say. Signing out...

Last edited by Chris_Y on 26-Aug-2013 at 11:54 PM.

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@itix
Quote:

it seems that processing GUI actions is done somewhere else Quote: ReAction uses a dedicated function (method) for processing GUI events but the place is the same - the program's main event loop, i.e. same as with Intuition/GadTools GUIs.

MUI uses something close to:
ULONG muiSignals = 0;
ULONG xtrSignals = SIGBREAKF_CTRL_C;
while (DoMethod(application, MUIM_Application_NewInput, (ULONG)&muiSignals)
!= (ULONG)MUIV_Application_ReturnID_Quit)
{
  signals = Wait(muiSignals | xtrSignals);
  if (muiSignals & SIGBREAKF_CTRL_C) break;
}

Reaction uses something close to:
uint16 code = 0;
int32 waitSignals = (1 « win->UserPort->mp_SigBit) | SIGBREAKF_CTRL_C;
int32 recdSignals = 0;
while( !(recdSignals & SIGBREAKF_CTRL_C) )
{
  recdSignals = Wait(waitSignals);
  if(recdSignals & (1 « win->UserPort->mp_SigBit))
  {
    while ( (result = IIntuition->IDoMethod(winObj, WM_HANDLEINPUT, &code)) != WMHI_LASTMSG )
    {
      ...
    }
  }
}

So they both loop around the Wait() function.
I don't know what MUI does internally but Reaction is interesting in that it processes messages by the Window and not the MessagePort.
If you use a shared port for multiple windows it goes through the Port's received messages and removes and processes those for the specified window.
Funnily enough, that should overall be faster than processing each message in turn and working out which window they belong to.
However it does mean that messages are processed out of order.

Last edited by gonegahgah on 27-Aug-2013 at 06:43 AM.
Last edited by gonegahgah on 27-Aug-2013 at 12:31 AM.

@Chris_Y

Quote:

* Almost no commercial software uses MUI. I wonder why that is?

Perhaps for the pretty much same reasons why most commercial software uses GadTools or totally custom UI

Of course back in the time, programs that got most praise for UI got separate UI for both GadTools and MUI (such as MiamiDX)

@asymetrix

Quote:

OMG, Arexx is a dinosaur, Python is what the world is using -if that is not too old now.

Well ARexx comes in two parts the language ARexx and the Arexx port part, the ARexx language is hardly a dinosuar even if it isn't trendy.

The ARexx port part is language agnostic, ir any language with suitable module can seend command to an ARexx port.

ARexx, python, perl all can do it at the moment (and C for that matter).

Quote:

Show me an app that will run a script and show me an automated tutorial of itself.

SketchBlock could if I wanted it too but it would be a waste of time.... I'd rather be writing features.

Quote:

What I meant was ALL apps should have this feature from day 1 as default.

I agree the first thing I write in any new project is the Arexx port, that's before the GUI framework even, not every dev has that priority though.

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@cha05e90

3.9 features? you mean like OS4 does? for me that would be a step backwards. I had a look at OS4 and its feature rich WB not a long time ago. It was so feature rich, that it looked just like an eyecandy bloated OS3.9 WB. Dude, i was shocked when i had a look at the system prefs. there's absolutely no improvement, besides an rightclick icon menu. No changes at all in the WB titlemenu. I felt like i'm using an OS from 1999.
MorphOS is so much more elegant and way faster and more intuitive than OS4. It has a lot of improvments in every aspect. Where are the improvements in OS4? i'd gladly like to know that.

So OS4 has now 3 toolkits? then again amicygnix as an OS inside the OS? dude, what the hell is OS4 meant to be? can you tell me that? it is getting even more bloated and alienated. someday all the amiga rooted system functions will be as obsolete as 68k emultion is in MorphOS. Now people are talking about more and more software thanks to qt, but when are you gonna fix all the existing issues? and what is the road OS4 is going? do you really think that it is still about expanding the amiga legacy or adapting more and more other OS stuff?

My opinion: Hyperion should stick to porting games.

@Chris_Y

Quote:

Chris_Y wrote: @Mazze Quote: Here is the reason why I prefer MUI over ReAction: FileX FileX isn't MUI.

Oops, you are right.

I found some more:
Wookiechat
Amitwitter
Lunapaint
Solition
Snoopium
Murks
Backman
Stricq

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As someone who codes for a living, I think that the best job for both Reaction and MUI is to just keep old software running; Qt should be used for all new projects. Qt uses modern metaphors for writing GUI code, so it makes it easy to write the sort of GUIs users expect these days. It's also a valuable tool for attracting new developers to the platform - there is a lot of Qt info out there and even devs who've never used it have at least heard of it.

I would even go so far as to suggest that someone set up a bounty to port OS4 Qt to MOS and AROS - that would be a great way to make software easy to port across OSs.

@Cego

Quote:

I had a look at OS4 and its feature rich WB not a long time ago. It was so feature rich, that it looked just like an eyecandy bloated OS3.9 WB. Dude, i was shocked when i had a look at the system prefs. there's absolutely no improvement, besides an rightclick

During the year Workbench was not improved so mutch (this is true), but what you called eyecandy is in reality mutch more than that,is the base for any feature development in that specific area, the old Workbench in OS 3.9 was really sketchy, full of bugs and with a lot of inefficiencies (especially on modern monitors) but not only on that

Since than not many feature was added, but some were: for example scalable icons. auto-update feature, gradients, full theming support, new startup preferences, notifications and many more

Quote:

MorphOS is so much more elegant and way faster and more intuitive than OS4

Maybe faster in 3D area, but elegant ? I don't think so, but it's questionable

Quote:

Where are the improvements in OS4? i'd gladly like to know that.

You know an OS is not just a desktop with some nice icons, there are a lot more internally .. did you ask where are the improvements ?

Well to start read the feature list atleast, or even better try it for a week or two then you will understand where are the improvements

Quote:

So OS4 has now 3 toolkits? then again amicygnix as an OS inside the OS

AmiCygnix have nothing to do, the AmigaOS frameworks we are talking are MUI, Reaction and the recently introduced Qt

Instead MorphOS have ?

MUI and just that, so ..

Quote:

bu Now people are talking about more and more software thanks to qt, but when are you gonna fix all the existing issues?

Don't forget that Qt is a third part efferts, it has nothing to do with any OS4 developers nor Hyperion

Quote:

My opinion: Hyperion should stick to porting games.

OS4 was and is developed by many people, most of them were also involved in AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9 .. not only by the Friedens bros just to speak

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@gonegahgah

Quote:

So they both loop around the Wait() function. I don't know what MUI does internally but Reaction is interesting in that it processes messages by the Window and not the MessagePort.

On MUI event loop is not processing UI events but signals developer is interested on. Zune beautifies this even further and removes this unnecessary low level Wait() loop. MUI event loop was designed to support this deprecated event id system.

The original idea was:

Quote:

while ((event_id = DoMethod(application, MUIM_Application_NewInput, (ULONG)&muiSignals)) != (ULONG)MUIV_Application_ReturnID_Quit) { signals = Wait(muiSignals | xtrSignals); if (muiSignals & SIGBREAKF_CTRL_C) break; switch (event_id) { /* process events here */ } }

This obviously is considered bad coding style on modern times.

Quote:

Funnily enough, that should overall be faster than processing each message in turn and working out which window they belong to.

Which one? RA or MUI way? Such micro optimization is not visible on any benchmarks.

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@itix

From what I can see the switch part isn't even needed for MUI.
The following line would appear to process all the MUI signals:

DoMethod(application, MUIM_Application_NewInput, (ULONG)&muiSignals)
!= (ULONG)MUIV_Application_ReturnID_Quit

So MUI would appear to be the same as you say for Zune.
Perhaps you could should how they are coded to show any differences?

For my own code I have simplified the wait loop down to:

HandleEvents(pEventsManager, pUserData);

That's it in its entirety.

My main() function is always the following:

int main(int iArgC, char **pArgV)
{
  struct AppData *pSelf = InitSelf(iArgC, pArgV);
  if(pSelf)
  {
    if(GetGoing(pSelf, iArgC, pArgV))
    {
      Perform(pSelf);
      ShutDown(pSelf);
    }
    DeInitSelf(pSelf);
  }
  return 0;
}

I used to follow a skeleton approach but didn't like that much.
So I came up with the above approach.

My Peform() function is just:

void Perform(struct AppData *pSelf)
{
  pSelf->ad_IGGG->ManageEvents(pSelf->ad_EventsManager, pSelf);
}

I could have put this into my main() function but I wanted to make it generic.

From what I've come to realise I can use this to make Reaction programs.
Because of the way MUI handles signals I couldn't use this to make MUI programs.
[Correction] You probably could use this for MUI as well; just not the ManageEvents.
ManageEvents() is not compatible with MUI but MUI code could be used instead.
It is compatible with Reaction.

I find it relaxing not have to worry about the form of the main() function.

Last edited by gonegahgah on 27-Aug-2013 at 08:32 AM.
Last edited by gonegahgah on 27-Aug-2013 at 08:31 AM.

@gonegahgah

Quote:

DoMethod(application, MUIM_Application_NewInput, (ULONG)&muiSignals) != (ULONG)MUIV_Application_ReturnID_Quit So MUI would appear to be the same as you say for Zune. Perhaps you could should how they are coded to show any differences?

There is MUIM_Application_Execute method. So instead of usual MUIM_Application_NewInput and Wait() combo you just call this method to process events.

Quote:

void Perform(struct AppData *pSelf) { pSelf->ad_IGGG->ManageEvents(pSelf->ad_EventsManager, pSelf); } I could have put this into my main() function but I wanted to make it generic. From what I've come to realise I can use this to make Reaction programs. Because of the way MUI handles signals I couldn't use this to make MUI programs.

You can do that in MUI. ManageEvents() would be just standard MUI input event loop where you call Wait() and MUIM_Application_NewInput to process events. If you were using Zune you could replace ManageEvents() by MUIM_Application_Execute method.

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@cha05e90

Quote:

It's 2013 and for example MorphOS still isn't able to feature something simple like a decent and feature-rich WB ... ah, sorry... Ambient Icon Information Requester like AmigaOS 3.9 's RAWBinfo

Huh? MorphOS has one at least since version 2.0. It is just highly dynamic and you won´t see any gadgets, which are not required for a specific icon.

It even shows version information and calculates the md5 sum, if the user requests and allows the user to drop an image to replace the icon, just like the old 3.9 enhancement.



As you can see the requester provides plenty of information and options, depending on the type of icon to avoid confusing the user with non available options.

But maybe you can give us a hint on what information/setting is missing here.

Geit