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      /  It's time to join the forces - Part III
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number6 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 12-May-2011 13:43:32
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9860
From: In the village

@HenryCase

Quote:
I just told you that! By showing them the benefits that cooperation brings.


Hmm..Do you really think that users posting in a thread about co-operation can achieve what you envision?
Is there any benefit, in other words, in having the "leadership" of all groups foster such a notion instead, in hopes that their individual followers will put more faith in that notion, when coming from a more official source?

I think it's a valid question since I see no posts from Hyperion management about this, nor MorphOS management, nor AROS management.

If C=USA believes they are to be some unifying force that at least opens the doors to new discussions, does not the onus of a business plan to reach that goal fall squarely on their shoulders?

In short, I only see ideas being thrown out by users and spokespeople from all sides. I don't think that gets anyone anywhere, particularly since most sides don't even understand what other sides want. (the users think they know, but sheesh...)

#6

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 12-May-2011 14:06:00
#62 ]
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Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3311
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:
Hmm..Do you really think that users posting in a thread about co-operation can achieve what you envision?


Hi #6
Humble people tends to listen when many give them same advice

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HenryCase 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 12-May-2011 14:22:01
#63 ]
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Joined: 12-Nov-2007
Posts: 688
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote:
@HenryCase

Quote:
I just told you that! By showing them the benefits that cooperation brings.


Hmm..Do you really think that users posting in a thread about co-operation can achieve what you envision?


No, I don't. Look at what I wrote. I'm advocating more than words from users, I'm saying get the people who make applications to show the core developers how its done.

How do you do this? Well, anyone can develop applications if they put their mind to it, if they want they can develop cross-platform applications themselves, be a good example to others.

I'm not promising that core developers will listen, but what I want to get away from is this notion that you need to wait for permission to start building bridges. You don't. You can start building bridges yourself. Code, and support all those that code, no matter the platform. That will make a sizeable difference.

Last edited by HenryCase on 12-May-2011 at 02:22 PM.

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jkirk 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 12-May-2011 16:45:54
#64 ]
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Joined: 28-Jan-2005
Posts: 3347
From: Georgia (usa)

@AmigaBlitter

all of ya'll are missing my point. i am not advocating an open source model but instead i was responding to a claim that using open source material = no profits.

also i believe the ppc model is unsustanable so to minimize expense in moving to x86 i was suggesting using aros as the base for a new os differentiated by the different os companies.

@henrycase

if you want copy protection then make it for the os. this part does not have to be open sourced nor does any part that hyperion wants to create in house. only the parts used from or modified aros code need to be open sourced. i was only suggesting if the devs would get together and use shared coding (barring proprietary ) then program coding would be easier for authors as well as minimizing cost & time to accomplish.

Last edited by jkirk on 12-May-2011 at 04:48 PM.

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HenryCase 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 12-May-2011 18:15:33
#65 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2007
Posts: 688
From: Unknown

@jkirk

Quote:
jkirk wrote:
@henrycase

if you want copy protection then make it for the os. this part does not have to be open sourced nor does any part that hyperion wants to create in house. only the parts used from or modified aros code need to be open sourced. i was only suggesting if the devs would get together and use shared coding (barring proprietary ) then program coding would be easier for authors as well as minimizing cost & time to accomplish.


Whilst I agree shared code would be beneficial, you made two mistakes with your description of how this could work:
1. The APL (AROS Public License) does not require any changes to source code be open-sourced. Both AmigaOS4 and MorphOS use AROS code already (they do not need to give any code back).
2. Your plan to close source a copy protection library is doomed to fail, all that would happen is all calls to this library would be rerouted, bypassing the copy protection whilst remaining otherwise functionally identical.

On point 2, this reminds me of what happened with SRWare Iron, which is a fork of Google Chrome. The only major difference between Iron and Chrome is that in Iron the user tracking functions have been removed. The lesson to learn is, if you have an open-source project and implement undesired features, they can be removed.

Last edited by HenryCase on 12-May-2011 at 06:49 PM.

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saimon69 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 12-May-2011 20:09:17
#66 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2007
Posts: 269
From: Los Angeles, CA

want to summarize my personal point of view on short lines:
- ok, competition is good but interoperation is needed;
- amiga oses (if considered all together) cover almost all market segments but is not enough;
- right now is important to increase awareness that ALL amiga oses exists to have bigger user bases;
- would like to see all amiga oses interoperating together (a defined batch dev libs to write in all flavors es: mui/zune, ahi, maybe qt4 and wxwidgets) some defined cross-platform tools and languages (es: arexx,python, lua, samba) that have to communicate with other like oses to grant interoperability and data exchange;
- propose amiga oses to other hobby segments as alternative to linux (run in your new and semi old hardware, is lightweight and easier to use) and show the advantages - if hobbyist is already or was an amiga user give him software to do its hobby on amiga oses (that need to be ported in all flavors and communicate among flavors);

that grant autonomy among all flavors and also provide a mostly consistent tool across platforms.

My two cents ^^

btw i really feel p**d when i see good potential like ours wasted because of ego and shortsightedness...

Saimon69


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amigadave 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 12-May-2011 21:59:03
#67 ]
Team Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Posts: 1525
From: Lake Shastina, Northern Calif.

@HenryCase

I agree with your sentiments exactly. It is very unlikely that the AmigaOS4.x and MorphOS2.x teams will ever get along (at least while certain people are involved in both teams), but that does not mean that the developers who are not a part of either team can't cooperate with each other and ignore any past, or current conflicts the two opposing camps might have. The AROS people seem to have avoided most of the conflicts (thank god) and most of the "Next Gen" Amiga people seem to think that the Classic Amiga users and developers are mostly irrelevant any more and that AROS, MorphOS2.x, or AmigaOS4.x are the only interesting ways forward.

I think that there will be many surprised "Next Gen" users and developers when the FPGAArcade Replay and Natami are finally finished and released for sale to the general public and a resurgence in development of AmigaOS3.x software and beginning of SuperAGA software starts to occur. It won't be anything close to what it was in the old days, but I won't be surprised if the amount of new software for the Replay and Natami boards rivals the amount being written for any of the "Next Gen" Amiga systems. We will just have to wait a year or so to see how this progresses. (Assuming that the Natami Team can finish their board and start producing a finished product that we can buy by then. It looks like the Replay will be ready for sale within the next few weeks and its daughter card with 060 should be done later this year, or early next year)

Exciting changes and additions to the Amiga community will be happening between now and the same time next year. Who would have imagined the number of choices we would have if asked only 12 to 18 months ago?

Last edited by amigadave on 12-May-2011 at 10:00 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 12-May-2011 23:14:15
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10707
From: Norway

@amigadave

I don't believe in any return of AMOS application on NatAMI, I think most games and applications will support AHI, and think most smart developers will use timer.device for timing, I think most new classic software written for NatAMI will also work on Classic Amiga 4000/1200, and MorphOS and AmigaOS4

AMOS does not use any of new features of SuperAGA, I think most new applications will be written in C or Assembler, people don't write software in BlitzBasic anymore they use AmiBlitz.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-May-2011 at 12:50 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-May-2011 at 12:49 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 12-May-2011 at 11:16 PM.

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Channel_Z 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 13-May-2011 0:04:03
#69 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2009
Posts: 305
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
NetAMI


You have called Natami "Netami" for years now. How about actually learning the proper name?

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 13-May-2011 10:28:59
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3311
From: Unknown

@jkirk

OK, i've got your pint.

Btw, open source = profit

Firefox get money from google and from community as well as thunderbird
One years ago 'ive teached about some linux distribution and my company payed the teachers for this.

Read Had have a big server market

Looking @ the various work announce in Italy 50-60 % are Linux and open source software related.

BTW, best to back on topic

Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 13-May-2011 at 10:29 AM.

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vidarh 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 13-May-2011 11:03:11
#71 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@amigadave

Quote:
most of the "Next Gen" Amiga people seem to think that the Classic Amiga users and developers are mostly irrelevant any more and that AROS, MorphOS2.x, or AmigaOS4.x are the only interesting ways forward.


Depends what you consider "Next Gen", then I supposed, as there are plenty of AROS devs that are excited about the 68k port and that would love to get hold of Natami's or Replay boards to run AROS on them and that are committed to getting good backwards compatibility for 68k AmigaOS apps.


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Mechanic 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 13-May-2011 12:48:19
#72 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@amigadave

Quote:

amigadave wrote:
most of the "Next Gen" Amiga people seem to think that the Classic Amiga users and developers are mostly irrelevant any more and that AROS, MorphOS2.x, or AmigaOS4.x are the only interesting ways forward.

Exciting changes and additions to the Amiga community will be happening between now and the same time next year. Who would have imagined the number of choices we would have if asked only 12 to 18 months ago?


I consider myself to be a NextGen person and believe strongly that NatAmi and
the Classics (w/wo ppc) are very relevant. It's a family.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 13-May-2011 13:21:22
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3311
From: Unknown

@saimon69

Quote:
- ok, competition is good but interoperation is needed;


I wrote a PPT presentation in the past about this. I have to consider if i should put online.


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Deniil715 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 13-May-2011 14:16:08
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4138
From: Sweden

I didn't bother to read the whole thread, but I think Fairdinkem and kas1e summed it up pretty nicely on the first page.

What I would like to add which prevents the joining of forces is that ppl would have to get new hardware to develop for a different OSes. Like I don't have a PC so I'd never bother with AROS. Classic stuff I can do on the A1. I actually have a MacMini so I could do MOS stuff but I have no need for it since I don't use it, so I do OS4 and possibly Classic only.

The most expensive is to get ppl to develop for OS4 that doesn't have an OS4 machine or a Classic PPC.

You tend to cling to the hardware you got.

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saimon69 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 14-May-2011 23:16:14
#75 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2007
Posts: 269
From: Los Angeles, CA

@Deniil715

Good point; sounds like the usual chicken ad egg problem; guess among the tools that i was referring before what is needed is some kind of cross-compiler and test environment, especially among AOS4 and MOS that are both PPC; that is acknowledged, problem is how to set it up together, especially for the ego and commercial interests in the middle...

Saimon69

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_ThEcRoW 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 15-May-2011 2:12:16
#76 ]
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Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 825
From: Murcia (Spain)

There would be more easily available and cheap hardware for os4 to code on, if they released moana.

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damocles 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 15-May-2011 16:27:21
#77 ]
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Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@AmigaBlitter

The only way for that to happen is if the Devs abandon OS4/AOS/MOS/AROS and head off to a fresh start with some sort of funding. While possible, highly improbable.

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Wildstar128 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 16-May-2011 5:01:09
#78 ]
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Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 175
From: Unknown

@AmigaBlitter

basically too many chefs and not enough line cooks.

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jkirk 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 16-May-2011 10:34:12
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2005
Posts: 3347
From: Georgia (usa)

@HenryCase

Quote:
The APL (AROS Public License) does not require any changes to source code be open-sourced. Both AmigaOS4 and MorphOS use AROS code already (they do not need to give any code back).


my whole point in sharing changes is simply to allow programs to run on all flavors. eliminating the need for a rewrite for each version. if that is not possible then so be it. just makes more work to get apps on all platforms.


Quote:
Your plan to close source a copy protection library is doomed to fail, all that would happen is all calls to this library would be rerouted, bypassing the copy protection whilst remaining otherwise functionally identical.


not if the copy protection is linked by all proprietary programs in the os.(or for that matter the protection being the proprietary files. tho you forget one thing tho. no copy protection is infallable. look at windows it has copy protection on all versions however it has been hacked and illegally used. same thing for the mac. copy protection is only to stop usage by law abiding citizens only.

Quote:
The lesson to learn is, if you have an open-source project and implement undesired features, they can be removed.

anything not desired can be removed open sourced or proprietary. if you base your buisness decisions on copy protection you will never release a product which i believe is why we haven't seen an x86 version of os4. the ppc version can be linked to hardware that is built in limited quantities. as well as the os being sold with said board = no chance for piracy. while it protects income it limits the amount of income that can come in.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part III
Posted on 16-May-2011 14:34:49
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3311
From: Unknown

@jkirk

Would be great if at least one of the OS's developers reply with positive words to this thread

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