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Poll : What do you think?
Plain simple paranoid BS
Interesting reading, still BS
Largely BS as Nibiru isn't nearby at this point
I'm open minded, could be true... But I'm sceptical
I think there's much truth in this
I'm convinced Nibiru/Planet X is looming nearby
Interesting gotta do some research
 
PosterThread
MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 11:27:59
#641 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

Scientists Discover Strong Magnetic Effect Of Light

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/laser-research-magnetic-light-solar-power,news-10916.html

University of Michigan: "Light has electric and magnetic components. Until now, scientists thought the effects of the magnetic field were so weak that they could be ignored."



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Lou 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 11:31:10
#642 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@MikeB

Many pages ago, I stated that one of the ufos that I have seen over the years was was blimp shaped and completely consumed in fire. It was slow moving and my friend and I pulled over on the highway to observe it for 10 minutes as it moved slowly and eventually we lost sight of it over the trees on the other side of the highway.

This was at night. Other than other cars occassionally zooming buy at 1am, there was no sound.

Ofcourse, if you ask the resident rocket-scientists here they will say something like: GUARRANTEED SUNDOG!

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BrianK 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 11:33:15
#643 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@MikeB

Quote:
No matter how outrageous the following news report may seem to be to most, this thread is about considering all options.
Clearly not true. This thread is about others being 'open' to accepting a model that fails to explain the solar system. It's not about you considering any other option. You encourage people to consider your option and fail to show the same respect.

Carl Sagan provides us a good summary of your opinion : "It's fair to keep an open mind, but not so open it falls out." Ya might want to pick yours off the floor.

Last edited by BrianK on 27-Apr-2011 at 11:33 AM.

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Lou 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 11:33:56
#644 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote:
Scientists Discover Strong Magnetic Effect Of Light

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/laser-research-magnetic-light-solar-power,news-10916.html

University of Michigan: "Light has electric and magnetic components. Until now, scientists thought the effects of the magnetic field were so weak that they could be ignored."

Light also has mass an is how a solar sail is used to propel a space ship.

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BrianK 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 11:44:06
#645 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
Light also has mass an is how a solar sail is used to propel a space ship.
And?! Even better for travel is gravity assist.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 11:50:01
#646 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@BrianK

Quote:
This thread is about others being 'open' to accepting a model that fails to explain the solar system. It's not about you considering any other option. You encourage people to consider your option and fail to show the same respect.


I have respect for both Isaac Newton's and Einstein's theories. I just think they are wrong from a universal standpoint (not here on earth).

You are free to disagree like you mostly do. I only ask from you to discuss things with an open mind and don't resort to ridiculing as you and others sometimes do.

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Lou 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 13:36:43
#647 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
I can't visualize your example at all.
Perhaps a more real world example may help you. Loaded Dice are created by decreasing mass on 1 side and/or increasing mass on the opposite side. The result is an unbalanced die which now doesn't roll equally but instead favors the lighter side up / heavier side down. Use the same material and magetize one side -- no effect.

You say gravity exists. I say it's a net effect of other forces that only "works" when one of two masses is particularly large and particularly close. If gravity is a law then under the controlled circumstances I described it should be able to be measured. You are introducing complexity and being obscure. Heck you can keep one much larger than the other and even keep one stationary and only move one and attempt to measure "gravitational pull". It can be precalculated. The force of friction can be calculated based on applying force to the sphere with no other sphere near by and measuring how much it slows down over a distance so that we can see how much gravitational force would be required to affect the inertia.

If gravity exists, it could be proven just like that.

Quote:

Quote:
launch then in a vacuum at each other parralel but in different planes and simply measure their velocities with precise equipment.
Again a vacuum won't matter. A vacuum is particle free not gravity free. Also, just because there are two objects here does not prove positive the same effect is or isn't at work within the planets of the solar system.

The purpose of the vacuum is to eliminate "other forces" such as atmospheric resistence, so it does indeed matter.

Quote:

Quote:
Further proof: objects in space shuttle cabins don't suddenly cling to anything in space. The float randomly.
They don't float randomly. That's an incorrect observation. The space shuttle is falling towards earth as is everything in it's cabin. It's simply accelerating away at the same time causing a low gravity condition. Aka gravity is not 9.8 m/s/s in the space shuttle orbiting the planet, it's less.

So you are saying gravity starts to disappear. My point is that it never existed to begin with. Every atom (and even light) has an electro-magnetic force. The sum of all those forces encompassing all angles from all around the horizon to perpendicular to your feet may net 9.8 m/s^2 near the surface of the earth.

Quote:
Per your example you've failed to provide any coorelation that the sun or planets work by the same mechaism in your arm. Even if you find violence as an easy answer when the real world fails you.

It's a violent universe out there, wouldn't you agree?

Quote:
I say this net effect is what you observe as gravity
As I've told Mike you're free to say whatever you want. The proof is in the evidence which neither of you has brought. Conjecture is not conclusive.
[/quote]
But gravity is conjecture and disputed not by us but by scientists. As I said, it only works under certain circumstances. It's not a universal law but a simplified one when conditions are right.

Below you basically agree with me.

Quote:
There's a concept of a Unified Force which unities gravity, electro/magnetism, strong, and weak forces. We aren't there yet. And once we are it'll be a question of how this is applied. It could be such that the UF has different properties it displays under different conditions. As such that would explain why the magnetic force is weak to non-existent for planets in our solar system and the gravitational aspect is predominate.

Call us when you move from conjecture to evidence or predictability that's a close proximity to the Law of Gravity.
:END EDIT

But magnetism is not a strong or weak force because it can be strengthened or weakend. It's one that is emitted from every atom for every direction and because both positive and negative values are coming from all directions, the net is the simplified gravity-like effect. For the most part, the earth around you is not changing mass an it's net effect on you is measured and observed as gravity. It's assigned a constant because this constant has been measured using an extremely large mass called the earth and an extremely small mass in proportion to the earth at relatively extreme close proximity to the earth.

Note, as many times as the earth has gone around the sun, the moon has gone around the earth potentially 12 to 13 times more and it still hasn't crashed into the earth or escaped. Go figure. Your gravity is quite fickle me thinks. Heck, Mercury's orbit is about 4x as fast as earth's and much closer proximity and it still hasn't crashed into the sun. Gravity seems quite fickle in deed...

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BrianK 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 13:36:51
#648 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@MikeB

Quote:
I only ask from you to discuss things with an open mind and don't resort to ridiculing as you and others sometimes do
Though point of order. Ridiculing ideas, especially when they're unsupported ridiculus drivel, is valid.

I hope you realize I've never ridiculed anyone personally on this site. For example, I never said your mama dressed you funny. Why? Well I can neither confirm nor deny what you wear or if your mama dresses you.

OTOH I have been the target from the anti-gravity crowd that are violent and threatening. I assume, at best, they meant it with humor.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 14:02:46
#649 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@BrianK

I didn't attack or ridicule your ideas, I just expect from you that you don't expect me to believe your believes. The only way you can expect an attack or counter-ridicule statement is if you maliciously started it. I am a vivd supporter of showing respect and consideration, but also of defense if people are maliciously attacked.

For example my model clearly explains why our Milky Way would be shaped as a pancake with a spiral of stellar systems orbiting within it. What's your explanation using your model?

Last edited by MikeB on 27-Apr-2011 at 02:04 PM.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 14:56:36
#650 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@BrianK

If you cannot answer the above question then I have another one for you. According to the theory of universal gravity, the right momentum is needed to keep a body from slamming into another body that are orbiting each other.

What happens if a massive object slams into for example our moon and changes this momentum? In my model the orbiting will continue, what happens in your model?

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BrianK 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 15:01:12
#651 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
You say gravity exists. I say it's a net effect of other forces that only "works" when one of two masses is particularly large and particularly close.
I can see your confusion as both gravity and electro/magnetic force work on the same proximity. Each decreases it's effects via the inverse square law.

We have a force that only attracts, gravity. We have a force with both attraction and repulsion, electro magnetic. In very small particles the electromagnetic does play a larger role than the gravitational. In very large objects the roles are reversed. The explaination for this is a large object is made up of many small objects. The net effect is a dual action force (electro/magnetism) will negate it's own effects. Gravitational doesn't have this cancelling effect and thus dominates. A planet, as we're been talking here, in it's construct cannot produce enough of an electromagnetic effect to make a difference. Again Do the Math and you'll be able to compare the Force from both forces.

Quote:
If gravity is a law then under the controlled circumstances I described it should be able to be measured.
And in theory it can be. The question isn't one of existence or not. The question is one of accuracy of the measuring devices.

Quote:
The purpose of the vacuum is to eliminate "other forces" such as atmospheric resistence, so it does indeed matter.
It may eliminate 'other forces' it fails to eliminate gravitational. Even electro/magnetic can be blocked with the proper material. To block gravitational you'd need to accelerate the vacuum container in a direction opposite to the force of gravity. Aka your shuttle example. But, we'd need the shuttle to travel at 42 km/s so it breaks the barycenter tie to the Sun.

Quote:
So you are saying gravity starts to disappear
Both gravitational and electro/magnetic have an infinite field. Both reduce (disappear) via the inverse square law.

Quote:
But gravity is conjecture and disputed not by us but by scientists.
Electro/magnetic is conjecture and disputed not by us but by scientists. You brought up String Theory. In one conjecture there's indeed a single unifying force that contains all 4. In another there's a 5th force. However that doesn't stop that all the observational evidence leads to gravity and against electro/magnetic when we talk about planets.

Quote:
Note, as many times as the earth has gone around the sun, the moon has gone around the earth potentially 12 to 13 times more and it still hasn't crashed into the earth or escaped. Go figure. Your gravity is quite fickle me thinks
Sorry adding electro/magnetic here doesn't make things any less fickle. In fact they are more fickle because if this is dominated by electro/magnetic the force is weak and therefore the moon should be closer to the earth and the earth closer to the sun. Those observations of course fail and thus we know it's not electro/magnetic.

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Lou 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 16:53:57
#652 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
You say gravity exists. I say it's a net effect of other forces that only "works" when one of two masses is particularly large and particularly close.
I can see your confusion as both gravity and electro/magnetic force work on the same proximity. Each decreases it's effects via the inverse square law.

We have a force that only attracts, gravity. We have a force with both attraction and repulsion, electro magnetic. In very small particles the electromagnetic does play a larger role than the gravitational. In very large objects the roles are reversed. The explaination for this is a large object is made up of many small objects. The net effect is a dual action force (electro/magnetism) will negate it's own effects. Gravitational doesn't have this cancelling effect and thus dominates. A planet, as we're been talking here, in it's construct cannot produce enough of an electromagnetic effect to make a difference. Again Do the Math and you'll be able to compare the Force from both forces.

Ah but anti-gravity has been theorized. Also, ponder this. Suppose you had a solid sphere charged negatively. Suppose that sphere was surronded(encapsulated) by another sphere that was charged positively. I ask you what the magnetic field would look like and what the net effect of objects on it's surface would be that are mostly nuetrally charged? I also ask you to spin the entire "sphere".

Quote:

Quote:
If gravity is a law then under the controlled circumstances I described it should be able to be measured.
And in theory it can be. The question isn't one of existence or not. The question is one of accuracy of the measuring devices.

But using stop motion photography and such, you can measure any changes in the path not to mention where it ends up.

Quote:
The purpose of the vacuum is to eliminate "other forces" such as atmospheric resistence, so it does indeed matter.
It may eliminate 'other forces' it fails to eliminate gravitational. Even electro/magnetic can be blocked with the proper material. To block gravitational you'd need to accelerate the vacuum container in a direction opposite to the force of gravity. Aka your shuttle example. But, we'd need the shuttle to travel at 42 km/s so it breaks the barycenter tie to the Sun.
[/quote]
If gravity (down) is a constant as is claimed with the 9.8 m/s^2 then it would affect for objects equally and is only responsible for the frictional force required to be over come where the spheres touch the surface of the platform on the surface of this planet. Again you are introducing complexity when the actual problem is simple. If all objects have gravity then they should attract each other in a plane perpendicular to the force of gravity of the earth.

Quote:
Quote:
So you are saying gravity starts to disappear
Both gravitational and electro/magnetic have an infinite field. Both reduce (disappear) via the inverse square law.

Slowly you will understand that "gravity" is just a net result of electromagnet forces hence has similar properties.

Quote:

Quote:
But gravity is conjecture and disputed not by us but by scientists.
Electro/magnetic is conjecture and disputed not by us but by scientists. You brought up String Theory. In one conjecture there's indeed a single unifying force that contains all 4. In another there's a 5th force. However that doesn't stop that all the observational evidence leads to gravity and against electro/magnetic when we talk about planets.

To me gravity is like saying a plane departed a gate at 1pm and went 10km and docked at a gate in another airport at 2pm hence it travelled at 10km/h when in reality it took 5 minutes to take off, 15 minutes to land and dock, it had to accelerate for a while, maintain a speed then decelerate for a while and the net result dock to dock is 10km/h. That's what I hear when you/anyone mentions gravity. It's a summarized observation.

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T-J 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 17:09:20
#653 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
I didn't attack or ridicule your ideas, I just expect from you that you don't expect me to believe your believes. The only way you can expect an attack or counter-ridicule statement is if you maliciously started it. I am a vivd supporter of showing respect and consideration, but also of defense if people are maliciously attacked.

For example my model clearly explains why our Milky Way would be shaped as a pancake with a spiral of stellar systems orbiting within it. What's your explanation using your model?


The reason why you and your fellow Nibiru/Magnetism true believers expose yourselves to ridicule is because you refuse to extend the same courtesy to mainstream science that you demand for your fringe ideas.

You refuse to accept observational and experimental proofs of other theories. You then demand that we look at things that proper science already explains to a great degree of accuracy, but from your point of view, when we have demonstrated again and again that your point of view is based on fallacious logic and mere conjecture.

Quote:
But can you understand that to someone like me repulsion/attraction does sound far more natural from both stellar as well as atomic perspective?


Maybe it does. But since 'someone like you' seems to mean 'someone unwilling to do the maths', the opinion is still totally irrelevant to science.

You claim your model clearly explains the shape of the galaxy etc etc. OK, fine. Whatever. I will now challenge you to concisely explain your model for the galaxy and provide an equation (or series of equations) governing its motion. Can you do that?

Could you also provide an equation describing this:
Quote:
gravity dominates on planetary/stellar surfaces. The further away the objects are the magnetic forces including the current increase in dominance


Because you defy the inverse-square relationship of force with distance there. It would be interesting to try to confirm your equation in experiment. Yes, 'interesting', that's a good word for it.

Oh, and if you don't understand why it is necessary to encode a theory of physics in a series of equations, then I would have to doubt your assertion that you have a laboratory background at all.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 17:10:07
#654 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@BrianK

Quote:
I can see your confusion as both gravity and electro/magnetic force work on the same proximity. Each decreases it's effects via the inverse square law.


I don't think reality works exactly like that for our solar system. For example it makes a difference if you have a permanent magnet and a piece of iron in between or some other material such as the air we breathe:





We know outer space dust clouds align in accordance of magnetic field and we know the sun has been excerting magnetic dust cloubs for billions of years into its surroundings.

Last edited by MikeB on 27-Apr-2011 at 05:11 PM.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 17:21:07
#655 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@T-J

Quote:
The reason why you and your fellow Nibiru/Magnetism true believers expose yourselves to ridicule is because you refuse to extend the same courtesy to mainstream science that you demand for your fringe ideas.


Did I attack Einstein or Isaac Newton in any of my postings? I believe true scientists like Einstein would want fellow scientists to ask the hard questions. Einstein never claimed his theories to be fact and neither do I. But personally I don't believe in universal gravity for many different reasons such as an acceleration of the expansion of the universe and an exact momentum needed for planetary and stellar objects to stay in orbit around each other.

I strongly believe in my attraction-repulsion theory, down to the smallest wave/particles and up to the biggest stars so far discovered.

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T-J 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 17:27:12
#656 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
Did I attack Einstein or Isaac Newton in any of my postings? I believe true scientists like Einstein would want fellow scientists to ask the hard questions. Einstein never claimed his theories to be fact and neither do I. But personally I don't believe in universal gravity for many different reasons such as an acceleration of the expansion of the universe and an exact momentum needed for planetary and stellar objects to stay in orbit around each other.




Yes, Einstein wanted his successors in science to ask the hard questions.

Here's a hard question:

'How can we marry quantum physics with relativity in a unified field theory?'

The answer? Dunno.

But I can tell you for absolute certainty - magnetism does not marry quantum with relativity, it is merely one of the forces we have already accounted for in the classical Einsteinian-Newtonian-Faraday etc physics.

Quote:
I strongly believe in my attraction-repulsion theory, down to the smallest wave/particles and up to the biggest stars so far discovered.


Even to the exclusion of what the evidence shows? Even though we can prove your attraction-repulsion theory wrong with a simple loaded dice and a magnet?

See, this is why I don't actually believe that you have a laboratory background. Science doesn't 'strongly believe' in theories, scientists report what the evidence tells us, and build theories to explain that. Then we test the theories with further experiment and adapt them to fit the evidence.

What you've been doing is denying evidence to keep your theory protected from nasty little inconvenient facts.

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T-J 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 17:29:49
#657 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
I don't think reality works exactly like that for our solar system.




Describe what you think reality works like, in an equation!

Until you do that, you can't gather any evidence to test your theory against! Until you form an equation to describe your new physics, this is all just so much meaningless babble.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 17:33:32
#658 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@T-J

Quote:
simple loaded dice and a magnet


No simple magnet we make can mimic the behaviour of our sun. Its heliosphere reaches further than our furthest planet we have encountered in our solar system. That's one freaking huge magnet and the sun isn't at all like a little bar magnet you keep in your pocket. It doesn't rotate hasn't exerted endless billions of tons of magnetic material into its surroundings, etc, etc. Thus any such experiment does not have to be representative for reality.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 17:35:56
#659 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@T-J

Quote:
Describe what you think reality works like, in an equation!


Don't act stupid. How the hell should I know how much magnetic material is actually around there in our solar system? Even the amount exerted by the sun per year is just a best guess by our scientists.

Last edited by MikeB on 27-Apr-2011 at 05:40 PM.

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T-J 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 27-Apr-2011 23:20:42
#660 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@MikeB

I'm acting stupid? You have access to the best estimates for the amount of magnetic material - build some equations based on the best guess!

But you can't do that, can you? With this most recent round of assertions, you have proposed that not only is the nature of the universe unknown, it is also unknowable.

You present magnetism and the amount of magnetic material in the solar system as this great mystery, but it simply is not the case. You also propose that the inverse-square law relating distance to the strength of both gravity and electro-magnetism is false, but fail to provide any equation as an alternative describing the loss of force over distance.

You fail to fill in the massive holes in your own magnetic theory, and have so far refused to accept that they even exist.

We gravitationists have no problem admitting that our current theory isn't complete, with the issue of reconciling quantum physics with relativity still to be solved. Why can you not admit that your own magnetics theory has massive gaps at the most basic level while still falling at the quantum hurdle?

In short, pardon me, but I think I'm just going to put your magnetic theory in the bin and stick with using Quantum mechanics and the General Relativity for now. With Newton for quick calculations of course. Since these theories give practical, useful results that even now allow us to put satellites around Saturn and Jupiter, and probes out beyond the heliopause, I feel that I will be just fine doing so.

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