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Poll : What do you think?
Plain simple paranoid BS
Interesting reading, still BS
Largely BS as Nibiru isn't nearby at this point
I'm open minded, could be true... But I'm sceptical
I think there's much truth in this
I'm convinced Nibiru/Planet X is looming nearby
Interesting gotta do some research
 
PosterThread
MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 22:01:50
#361 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@T-J

Quote:
The mechanism adheres to the geocentric model, though, as of course the ancient astronomers didn't recognise the Earth as a planet


That's incorrect. I was looking on the internet for an ancient persian symbol of two bulls holding a globe (the earth) with the sun hovering above (Tepe Sialk), sadly I couldn't find it (but there's still an old persian saying related to this in use today). It was known to ancient astronomers the earth is a planet.

Also to accurately predict the position of Venus in the sky one has to understand Venus' and Earth's position to the sun. Think about it.

Last edited by MikeB on 16-Apr-2011 at 10:03 PM.

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T-J 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 22:07:22
#362 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@Lou



Quote:
Call me when he's layed a stone across two stones of that size.


He has done. If you can raise one block off the ground to lower it into a hole, you can raise another one the same height to put it on top of two others. Simple!


Oh, and I checked the video I linked to and its not great. This version has a better FPS rate.

Quote:
As in someone else's interpretations? I'll pass.


Its 'only' the interpretation of every other translator apart from Sitchin to ever read the tablets, yes.

Feel free to pass, but it makes your theory look bad if you refuse to give anyone but Sitchin the time of day. Makes it look like you consider that any other interpretation other than Sitchin's *must* be wrong, because it is different.

I really do wonder how someone who claims not to be religious comes to have such blind faith in one man.

Quote:
Sure. If you have 1000 years of spare time.


Actually, it doesn't take long at all to cut a huge block of limestone with the sisal rope method. Its been demonstrated by people *actually doing it*. And in Ancient Egypt we see the first society that could devote a large portion of its population to non food-related tasks. It is entirely plausible that the blocks were being cut in a continuous industrial process by a workforce sustained by the agricultural surplus granted by the Nile floods, and then assembled to order as and when a new pyramid was needed.

Feel free to deny the evidence, though. In fact, go ahead.

Quote:
All "modern" structures periodically undergo maintenance. Smoke another one.


You actually believe that the Pyramids have survived the millenia unscathed, don't you?

Actually, they're in quite a sorry state compared to how the Egyptians intended them to look. A lot of the early ones have actually collapsed, as they were built before they hit on the idea of building them at the stable 43 degree slope. The necropolis of Dahshur has the pyramid Sneferu, now known as the Bent Pyramid, which is particularly interesting. First, its a wierd shape - they changed the design halfway through, from the previous unstable design to the familiar 43 degree angle of later pyramids. This isn't something you do if you're a highly advanced alien building landing platforms for your starships. And second, the south side of its original limestone cladding remains intact. This cladding was present on all the later pyramids, but of course millenia of erosion has destroyed most of it.

Quote:
I've come to accept that my answers don't matter to you. When will you accept your answers don't matter to me?


I don't care if you don't care. I just think its important to apply reason to daft conspiracy theories and especially to pseudo-archaeology. If you were just a 9/11 conspiracy nut, or an Apollo-Hoax theorist, I would have given up and gone home by now. But you insist on tarnishing archaeology, geology and astronomy with your bunk. Call it a point of professional integrity.

Quote:
What's rubbish is I never mentioned Erich von Daniken. He is a proven fraud and usually the basis of your rants. You only bring to the table what you can disprove easily. You go off and put words in my mouth with the above aggregation.


Did I hit a nerve there? That's only the second time I mentioned von Daniken. As a point of information, the same evidence that disproved von Daniken also disproves Sitchin, so by accepting him as a fraud you also by extension recognise Sitchin as likewise. Not that you'll see it that way, of course.

Quote:
Do you see what you are doing here? You are coming up with a theory that is completely unfounded and unproven. You can choose to believe it. Go right ahead actually.


You are wrong. First, I didn't 'come up' with that theory. I am simply reporting what the anthropologists think might be the case. And second, the difference between you and me is that I don't 'believe' in the theory I reported to you. I merely present it as the most liikely scenario and I stress the fact that interpreting past cultural behaviours is very difficult. We simply don't know exactly why the Nazca Lines were made and we will probably never find out. You on the other hand present the notion of ancient astronauts as incontrovertible fact despite the massive weight of evidence against it and then cling to it as dogma long after it becomes ridiculous.


Quote:
Really? How do you explain the ridiculouly time-consuming process of removing the red pebbles from the ground deep enough to still be visible 2500 year later? I guess there were alot of people around with ALOT of spare time on their hands..


Yes, really. And I don't explain it. Joe Nickell found that it wasn't that time consuming after all, and besides, the Nazca desert where the lines are is extremely dry and windless, with little change in weather or climate over the centuries, which has helped to preserve the lines.

You can deny this if you like, but you'll only add the entire field of Geomorphology to the list of evidence stacked against you.

Quote:
That's your theory. You go with that.


Yes, I admit it. I prefer to believe that all of humanity is capable of originality. Given the complete absence of evidence for outside influence, I'll stick with that.

Last edited by T-J on 16-Apr-2011 at 10:24 PM.

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T-J 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 22:20:46
#363 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
That's incorrect. I was looking on the internet for an ancient persian symbol of two bulls holding a globe (the earth) with the sun hovering above (Tepe Sialk), sadly I couldn't find it (but there's still an old persian saying related to this in use today). It was known to ancient astronomers the earth is a planet. Also to accurately predict the position of Venus in the sky one has to understand Venus' and Earth's position to the sun. Think about it.


The Antikythera Mechanism did not accurately predict the position of Venus.

Actually, the mechanism in the state it was found in didn't even include a dial for Venus, but it could have had one originally, so we'll give it the benefit of the doubt here. Regardless, its mechanisms would not have accurately predicted Venus, because Ancient Greek astronomy worked on the Aristotelian system of the geocentric model.

This Aristotelian model has a spherical Earth at the center of the universe and all other heavenly bodies attached to 56 concentric spheres which rotate around the Earth. These spheres, known as crystalline spheres, all moved together, but their speeds varied to create the rotation of bodies around the Earth along with their periodic retrograde motion. They were thought to be composed of an intangible substance which Aristotle called aether.

The Ptolemaic Model of the later Hellenistic period was a refinement that tried to more accurately predict where the other planets were going to be by adding 'epicycles' to their orbits and binning the crystalline spheres idea. This kludge kept things going for a while, until Copernicus, Galileo and friends finally got the heliocentric model through the censors.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 22:37:50
#364 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@T-J

"Now, however, scientists delving into the astronomical theories encoded in this quintessentially Greek device have concluded that they are not Greek at all, but Babylonian — an empire predating this era by centuries. This finding is forcing historians to rethink a crucial period in the development of astronomy. It may well be that geared devices such as the Antikythera mechanism did not model the Greeks' geometric view of the cosmos after all. "

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101124/pdf/468496a.pdf

Really a lot of new things have been discovered about our own solar system, brown dwarfs, ancient human history in recent years. You seem to act everything is well understood by now. That's not the case at all for mainstream educational backgrounds.

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T-J 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 22:49:52
#365 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@MikeB

From the same article, we have this:

'This is a tough assertion to prove. The uneven division of the zodiac scale could have been just the result of sloppy work by the machine’s creator, and its similarity to the Babylonian scheme just a coincidence. Wright, who was the first to suggest that epicyclic gearing modelled the motions of the Sun and planets, says he is “very uncomfortable” with the idea that the device modelled the Moon’s motion mechanically, yet used an abstract numerical scheme to do the same for the Sun.'

I think I've already been over this though. I don't normally like to quote myself, but it'll save me typing out the same stuff yet again:

Quote:
The Greek mathematics inherited a lot from the Babylonians. In the same way that the European mathematics inherited a lot from the Islamic cultures of the middle ages, who got a lot of ideas from the Greeks and Indians, who in turn built on what came before. Science generally builds on what comes before it, with the occasional revolutionary idea that even so does not stand isolated but instead draws on the work of others.


So nobody's saying that the Greeks couldn't have used Babylonian mathematics to help them build their mechanism. But the possibility that the Greeks could have done that does not mean that the mechanism is an 'oopart' or that aliens had any hand in it.

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recedent 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 8:12:46
#366 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2010
Posts: 227
From: Tarnów

@Lou

Finally I've made a decent "double Moon" video. You can watch it here. Well, the quality isn't really stunning, but nevertheless - it's a video and shows exactly what I've posted earlier - a "DIY double Moon".

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 10:56:37
#367 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@T-J

Quote:
Tyche *could* exist while Nibiru *cannot*


You fail to provide evidence why "Tyche" can exist and Nibiru cannot exist instead. Why can't the reasons which make scientists believe a "Tyche" exists be used to explain the existance of Nibiru instead?

There's so much human kind still don't understand. For example there's clear evidence of a polar shift did happen around 11,600 years ago. I think the Nibiru theory is most likely hint for cause.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Hapgood

Think about it, Antarctica is covered by ice since the last ice age. How could its shores have been mapped long before the continent was rediscovered in modern times?

I think most people just prefer to ignore all this evidence for personal reasons. There are so many hints found in the earliest known writings and within the earth itself. The abrahamic religions IMO of course destroyed and collected (and hide) much of the past knowledge. The later abrahamic religions were alterations of past knowledge and religion (Zoroaster) to suit personal interests and agendas (of kingdoms and religious rankings, like suddenly claiming the earth being the center of the universe).

Last edited by MikeB on 17-Apr-2011 at 10:59 AM.

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Kronos 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 11:28:23
#368 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2553
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Tyche's existence can neither be prooved or disprooved by current astronomics data.

Nibiru as a very massy object currently travelling through the inner parts of our solar system can be easily be disprooved by the fact that such an object could easiely be spotted by modern technology (or even by modes hobbiest gear).

The shores of Antarctica on old maps are a bit of a mystery, but that doesn't mean one has to set the most outrageous theory as fact.

Last edited by Kronos on 17-Apr-2011 at 11:28 AM.

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Nimrod 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 11:31:19
#369 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@MikeB

An interesting article but please don't just quote his assertion as "proof" Further quotes from the same article include.
Quote:
In 1958, Hapgood published The Earth's Shifting Crust which denied the existence of continental drift

Quote:
Later research concerning the paleoclimatology and ice sheets of Antarctica have completely discredited the interpretations by Hapgood

Quote:
In the book The Piri Reis Map of 1513 Gregory C. McIntosh examines Hapgood's claims for both maps and states that "they fall short of proving or even strongly suggesting that the Piri Reis map and the Fine map depict the actual outline of Antarctica.


Hapgoods collaboration with Gardner on the Acambaro figurines was rejected by reputable archeologists and paleontologists, and a decade working with the spiritualist and medium Elwood Babbitt does not actually enhance his credibility as a serious scientist.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 11:43:24
#370 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@Kronos

Quote:
could easiely be spotted by modern technology (or even by modes hobbiest gear).


With regard to the first part I agree, with the second part I don't agree at all. "Comet" Elenin is a very big object currently travelling through the inner parts of our solar system and we haven't seen any amateur encounters.

Mass is not important for discovery by amateur astronomers. Size and brightness are.

Mass is however crucial with regard to the amount of influence its magnetosphere can have on our planet during allignments.

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Nimrod 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 11:58:13
#371 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@MikeB

Quote:
Mass is however crucial with regard to the amount of influence its magnetosphere can have on our planet during allignments.


So it appears that Newtons law of universal gravitation was all wrong. It's all done by magnets.... Really big magnets

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When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

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T-J 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 12:07:09
#372 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
You fail to provide evidence why "Tyche" can exist and Nibiru cannot exist instead. Why can't the reasons which make scientists believe a "Tyche" exists be used to explain the existance of Nibiru instead?


But we've done that, about five times already! We've shown how the physics for the proposed orbit and behaviour of Nibiru just don't add up and how it is impossible that an object that large could exist that close to the Earth without affecting the tides and the satellites. We've also shown that nothing identifiable as Nibiru has never been observed from satellites and that all of the observations from Earth are explainable as lens-flare, double glazing or atmospheric refraction.

We have provided plenty of evidence why "Nibiru" cannot exist and nobody has been able to provide anything solid explaining that it does. Only Lou and co, with their quasi-religious belief in the writings of a crackpot economist, still cling to the notion that it does.

Tyche's proposed orbit is consistent with the laws of physics, though, and we don't ignore entire fields of physics and mechanics to try and claim that it causes earthquakes!

Quote:
There's so much human kind still don't understand. For example there's clear evidence of a polar shift did happen around 11,600 years ago. I think the Nibiru theory is most likely hint for cause.


There is no evidence for a pole shift 11,600 years ago. There is actually no evidence for a rapid geographical pole switch ever occurring at any point in the Earth's history. The Cataclysmic Pole Shift hypothesis is complete bunk and isn't taken seriously by anyone in the field of geology today.

Plate tectonics and continental drift holds that the locations of the continents have moved slowly over the Earth's surface, resulting in the gradual emerging and breakup of continents and oceans over hundreds of millions of years. This is completely incompatible with the notion that the geographical locations of the poles could switch rapidly.

There is evidence for plate tectonics, while there is no evidence for cataclysmic pole shift. There is also no mechanism that could drive the cataclysmic shift without wiping out all complex life on Earth. (And even so, no object in existance that could do it, because Nibiru does not exist) Now, if you choose to believe that the majority of the Earth's multicellular life went extinct for no clearly defined reason 11,600 years ago, you can do that, but please be aware that you might as well propose Young Earth Creationism for all the scientific credibility your idea has.

You must also be careful not to confuse geomagnetic reversal with this pole shift rubbish - we have already covered how the magnetic poles change through time, and why it is absolutely nothing to worry about whatsoever.

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Hapgood Think about it, Antarctica is covered by ice since the last ice age. How could its shores have been mapped long before the continent was rediscovered in modern times?


First point, about Hapgood:
Hapgood is another crank like von Daniken and Sitchin, and has been proven wrong several times as well. He has been unable to provide anything that suggests anyone discovered Antarctica before von Bellingshausen first sighted the landmass. To quote your wikipedia article, "they [Hapgood's artefacts] fall short of proving or even strongly suggesting that the Piri Reis map and the Fine map depict the actual outline of Antarctica."

Translation - Hapgood has no evidence. Hence we reject his theory.

Second point, on Antarctic ice:
Hapgood suggests that the Antarctic coast was ice-free 10600 years ago. This we know to be total bunk. The Antarctic ice sheet has been continuous since the mid-Miocene (around 20 million years), with on-and-off partial glaciation going further back, into the late Eocene (30 million years ago). Of course such ancient ice is badly deformed, but we can count the layers caused by annual accumulation up to around 400,000 years ago and see with the evidence of our own eyes that the ice was still perfectly stable 11600 years ago. We also find evidence for ice shelves projecting out over the southern ocean in all directions.

Quote:
I think most people just prefer to ignore all this evidence for personal reasons. There are so many hints found in the earliest known writings and within the earth itself. The abrahamic religions IMO of course destroyed and collected (and hide) much of the past knowledge. The later abrahamic religions were alterations of past knowledge and religion (Zoroaster) to suit personal interests and agendas (of kingdoms and religious rankings, like suddenly claiming the earth being the center of the universe).


If you want to believe in Zoroastrianism, that's fine. Freedom of religious affiliation and all that. But the notion that the Ancients knew everything and had it handed to them by aliens from a physically impossible planet? Its all just fraudulent rubbish from cranks like von Daniken or Sitchin. Totally discredited and only believed by people so desperate for the world to have a good storyline that they are willing to suspend all rational thought.

Last edited by T-J on 17-Apr-2011 at 12:09 PM.

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T-J 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 12:07:17
#373 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
"Comet" Elenin is a very big object currently travelling through the inner parts of our solar system and we haven't seen any amateur encounters.


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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 12:12:57
#374 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@Nimrod

Gravitation and magnetism are two different forces, as pointed out earlier within this thread.

Planets, brown dwarfs and stars act as huge magnets. Usually the more massy the planet/star the bigger the magnetic effect. The same goes for gravitational effects as well, but it's an entirely different force.

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T-J 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 12:13:35
#375 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@Nimrod

Quote:
Magnets.... Really big magnets


I suppose I should have posted this facepalm, then:

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Nimrod 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 12:28:41
#376 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@MikeB

Quote:
Mass is however crucial with regard to the amount of influence its magnetosphere can have on our planet during allignments.

Quote:
Gravitation and magnetism are two different forces, as pointed out earlier within this thread.

These two statements are mutually exclusive.
I will admit that I don't know much about the magnetosphere of comet Elenin, all I know is that I have never had any success picking up a snowball with a bar magnet.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 12:35:04
#377 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@T-J

Well I dislike Star Trek for being far too unrealistic and not funny enough to qualify as comedy. I would appreciate it if you would downsize those irrelevant pictures.

As for amateur astronomers not seeing "comet" ELEnin at this point despite its alledged size according to its finder and being within the inner solar system according to NASA understand its still 1.8 AU away from earth at this point according to NASA. So almost twice the distance as the sun is from earth.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 12:40:28
#378 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@Nimrod

Quote:
I will admit that I don't know much about the magnetosphere of comet Elenin, all I know is that I have never had any success picking up a snowball with a bar magnet.


That's of course assuming ELEnin is in fact a dirty snowball. We have no evidence for this and as pointed out earlier "comet" Borrelly showed no evidence of being merely a dirty snowball neither after close observation, as it has a hot dry solid surface.

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Nimrod 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 12:45:53
#379 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@MikeB

Quote:
That's of course assuming ELEnin is in fact a dirty snowball. We have no evidence for this and as pointed out earlier "comet" Borrelly showed no evidence of being merely a dirty snowball neither after close observation, as it has a hot dry solid surface.


True enough, but if memory serves me right Borrelly wasn't a world wrecking brown dwarf either. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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T-J 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 12:49:08
#380 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Well, I like Star Trek, Its an entertaining flight of fancy, although your mileage may vary.

Anyway, the second picture was O'Neill from Stargate. Which is perfectly relevant to this discussion. Indeed, I would say that it is as credible an exploration of the ancient astronaut idea as Sitchin or von Daniken.

Now, for your point about amateur astronomers not seeing Comet Elenin. If this is true, do you think the object is more likely to be a relatively insignificant 15km-wide snowball, or a gigantic object the size of Jupiter with 8x its mass?

Oh, and you still haven't given me any details about why you capitalise the first three letters of 'Elenin'. Extinction Level Event, wasn't it? \what about the 'nin'? Anyway, 'Elenin' is the man's name. So I don't see how you get to 'Extinction Level Event' from that.

And finally, see my post #373 and #375 for my opinion of your interpretation of Comet Borrelly. That has also already been explained, by myself and others.

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