@Leo

Yes.

@Mr_Capehill

Quote:

Mr_Capehill wrote: @Hans MiniGL is drawing triangles (compiled vertex arrays). Unfortunately I don't remember any details, it's been a while :(

Hmm. Compiled vertex arrays are marked as experimental. However, OpenArena is noticeably slower when it's disabled. Have you tried building MiniGL with compiled vertex arrays disabled, and using that? That could help to narrow down what's triggering the freeze.

Hans

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@Mr_Capehill

Quote:

Mr_Capehill wrote: @ikir If Q2 prints vidplay error to shell window, ignore it. I never ported vidplay tool. Q2 should work, try SnoopDos or some other tool. Well, at least Q3 menu freeze is known to me and I have reported it to the Friedens in 2008. I guess they don't have time to debug Warp3D. And it's difficult to chase because it's seemingly random, it will freeze in 3 seconds or 3 minutes but when you run a W3D driver in debug mode the performance drops < 1 FPS so it will take a lot longer to reproduce this issue and the game is of course unplayable when debugging. With a luck, the ingame freeze happens due to the same bug and could be fixed at once.

I know they are super busy.... but after a lot of time we haven't a good 3D system or neither fixed the old one. I hopeOS4 core team get the time to work on Warp3D/mesa/OpenGL soon, i think it is an important part of our OS, specially when A1-X1000 and Sam460ex will be released.

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ikir

@ikir Quote:

we haven't a good 3D system

I don't think so that's correct: OS4's 3D system is *pretty good*, particularly when you compare to smaller/younger niche OSes (e.g. Haiku) that have to do all 3D in software.

It's just that OS4's 3D is not optimal by modern standards (particularly when heavily using (Mini)OpenGL instead of directly programming Warp3D), and so some other system run some stuff faster.

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@ChrisH

When you have 45fps on morphos, and 20fps on aos4 with almost the same quake3, it's not correct to say "pretty good". Imho correct words here "it's working, but pretty far from perfect". For now there is only "good" think, that it working somehow. But these little, annoing bugs .. uhm .. i think it will never fixed :) (because for how i can send bugreports about warp3d ?:) ) In case with Morphos, when i found little warp3d bug, i talk with Henes, and for the next update he fix that. But in case with aos4, i just do not know with who talk about it, and who works on it. Rogue ?

Last edited by kas1e on 08-Apr-2010 at 09:09 AM.

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@kas1e

Quote:

kas1e wrote: @ChrisH When you have 45fps on morphos, and 20fps on aos4 with almost the same quake3, it's not correct to say "pretty good". Imho correct words here "it's working, but pretty far from perfect". For now there is only "good" think, that it working somehow. But these little, annoing bugs .. uhm .. i think it will never fixed :) (because for how i can send bugreports about warp3d ?:) )

Developers receiving bug reports isn't the problem; the problem is that those developers have hundreds of more important things to do than work on something that's going to be replaced. That's not to say that bugs won't be fixed, just that working on Warp3D is lower priority than, say, ExecSG.

In the case of the Quake3 freeze, we'd need to know exactly what's triggering the freeze, and preferably have a small test case that triggers it (don't expect MiniGL/Warp3D to wade though the Quake 3 code). Right now it's not even certain if it's Warp3D, or if MiniGL is sending it bad data.

Hans

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@kas1e Quote:

When you have 45fps on morphos, and 20fps on aos4 with almost the same quake3

Quake 3 is obviously the most extreme case, pushing OS4's (Mini)OpenGL to the (performance) limit. With something less demanding I think the difference will be less obvious (or even non-existant), e.g. Wipeout 2097.

Anyway, if it wasn't clear, my main point of comparison was OSes that have to do all 3D in software, in which case Quake 3 probably couldn't even run on them. I think it's pretty awesome that we have any hardware 3D support at all, and we should be happy for what we've got, rather than permanent doom-and-gloom for all the things we don't have (of which there is an almost infinite list!). Sure, as I said it's not perfect, but it's servicable until we have a modern replacement.

Last edited by ChrisH on 09-Apr-2010 at 09:13 AM.

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@ChrisH

Of course having warp3d+minigl is better , and more or less ok (all in all, i am personally port some games and demos which use opengl, and we done a diskmag which use warp3d), but, we all understand that our realisation (3d low-level + minigl) can be much better (and morphos on the same hardware , show us that is can be faster really).

Imho, the main lower framerate problems and alt, coming not from MiniGl, but from Warp3D itself. But i am not proffessional here (never done any drivers), so, can only say as user.

Imho we just need to wait when Hans will finish with HD-Radeon 2d drivers, and maybe he will looks at 3d+mesa :)

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@ChrisH
Quote:

I think it's pretty awesome that we have any hardware 3D support at all, and we should be happy for what we've got, rather than permanent doom-and-gloom for all the things we don't have (of which there is an almost infinite list!). Sure, as I said it's not perfect, but it's servicable until we have a modern replacement.

I have to agree there.
To tell you the truth I am mesmerized by being able to build very complex subdivision surface models in Blender on my Sam (thanks to the plethora of LOD settings the software offers).
I initially thought that 3D authoring on Sam was like running God of War on Atari Jaguar (impossible) but you can make a lot out of it (with know how and a little patience).

That is not to say I wouldn't welcome the much talked about Mesa port of course, Quake4 (with all its normal mapping/pixel shading glory)

should be open sourced soon if ID follows in its own usual steps, and Mesa 7.0 can handle it just fine (imagine running it on X1000 at HD resolutions with all the eye candy turned on, or even on the 460ex given a nice 3D card and, albeit far, lower settings)

Edit:image taken out as they seem to don't like linking...

Last edited by DAX on 10-Apr-2010 at 11:57 AM.

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@ChrisH

Quote:

With something less demanding I think the difference will be less obvious (or even non-existant), e.g. Wipeout 2097

Reportedly Wipeout 2097 runs faster and smoother on MorphOS. The same goes for other Warp3D games but it is not like they were any better on real Amiga. I never could get Warp3D working without crashes on my BPPC and I was not alone.

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@itix

Quote:

itix wrote: @ChrisH Quote: With something less demanding I think the difference will be less obvious (or even non-existant), e.g. Wipeout 2097 Reportedly Wipeout 2097 runs faster and smoother on MorphOS. The same goes for other Warp3D games but it is not like they were any better on real Amiga. I never could get Warp3D working without crashes on my BPPC and I was not alone.

I wouldn't be surprised with the faster bit but, as for smoother, I don't know how you'd be able to tell; it runs smoothly on Amiga OS 4.

Hans

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@kas1e Quote:

Imho, the main lower framerate problems and alt, coming not from MiniGl, but from Warp3D itself.

I don't know for sure either, but I think it comes from the mis-match between Warp3D's abstractions & MiniGL's abstractions, which thus introduce overhead. That's not really Warp3D's fault, it just wasn't intended for that purpose. Looks at the DirectX emulation running on top of OpenGL, it's not very efficient either (I would actually say it's terrible), for roughly the same reasons.

Quote:

morphos on the same hardware , show us that is can be faster

I see this as a good thing, it means there is room for improvement on existing hardware, so in the future Sam440 *could* run Quake 3 a lot faster.

And the fact that OS X is apparently faster then MorphOS when doing Quake 3 means there is even more room for improvement above that... I guess MOS users should be crying that they have such a rubbish 3D implementation too? (Hint: I think the answer is no, not any more than OS4 users should be.)

@itix Quote:

Reportedly Wipeout 2097 runs faster and smoother on MorphOS.

Hmmm, I had forgotten that MOS has a special patch for WO2097, designed to speed it up (nothing to do with 3D but rather debug code), so perhaps WO2097 was a bad example... Although it seems pretty smooth to me!

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@ChrisH

You are right and so on, but what i want to say: better always think that we can do better. That way for make more progress and good working stuff. Because if we will think in a way like "its already enough for us, and we can say thanks to gods because we have something"- that way is way to nothing. And yes, if morphos 3d drivers can works better, then, morphos users also must (must) cry about it, because it possible to make better => everyone will won in end. Of course that not mean just "cry" and annoy everyone, but also do not need to be happy with "something".

(that all imho)

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@ChrisH

The wipeout patch has nothing to do with speed up. It's a patch to avoid some illegal access the original game used for debug purposes.

And about quake3 on osx, i still wait for a proper benchmark using the original quake3 on mac mini (and ideally with both 10.4 and 10.5). :)

Last edited by Fab on 09-Apr-2010 at 08:28 PM.

Added Sam 800Mhz flex results:
http://amiga.ikirsector.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13847&p=157028

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@Fab

Maybe a stupid question..

Is this patch depending on the OS? Why can't this patch be applied and used under AOS4?

Thanks,
nexus

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@ikir

Why is the 800Mhz Sam flex only half as fast as the 667Mhz Sam ep?

nexus

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@nexus

Don't know, if you want try to bench you're welcome! In linked thread there are also settings to use with bench (max details)

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@Fab Quote:

The wipeout patch has nothing to do with speed up. It's a patch to avoid some illegal access the original game used for debug purposes.

I understood that these illegal accesses caused Wipeout to run slowly on MOS (not sure about OS4 but presumably there must be a similar problem).

@nexus Quote:

Maybe a stupid question.. Is this patch depending on the OS? Why can't this patch be applied and used under AOS4?

Because rather than directly patching the Wipeout executable's file, as one might normally expect, the coder chose to patch the executable *after* it was loaded by MOS. This has the unfortunate side-effect that the patch is completely unusable on OS4, at least without rewriting it...

Last edited by ChrisH on 10-Apr-2010 at 08:52 AM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 10-Apr-2010 at 08:52 AM.

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@ChrisH
Quote:

I understood that these illegal accesses caused Wipeout to run slowly on MOS (not sure about OS4 but presumably there must be a similar problem).

Imho these illegal accesses do nothing related to speed, it's just fixed game to avoid crashes and freezes, but speed itself with or without patch are the same (that as i remember when tryed it on morphos).

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