@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

The only thing we can almost guarantee a Xorro board will contain will be more XMOS chips.

In which case it makes even less sense to put one on the motherboard, and to use such a cumbersome connector.

There are something like 20 signals connecting the "CPU local bus" and the JTAG chain to the on-board XCore. Add a sprinkling of power and grounds, and a any simple connector in the 40 pin range will do. Then designers who want XCore chips on their "Xorro" cards don't have to deal with one chip being of a fixed type, whereas the rest of them are not. A Xorro card designer could even forego XCore chips altogether, if they are not the kind of thing most suitable for the intended purpose, and instead use the connectivity to hook up a microcontroller, an FPGA, or just about anything else desirable. Or, for simple tasks, simply use the CPU GPIO lines directly (preferably with some buffering :).

I am not against providing a geek port. In fact, I am all for it. And while Itix is correct, and hooking up things to USB is almost trivial these days, with many microcontrollers already having USB endpoints built in, the sheer simplicity of having GPIO readily available is the one thing I will lament when parallel ports finally go extinct.

Xorro's GPIO, however, is not "readily available" in the sense that a DB25 or a 40 pin DIL header is. In fact, interfacing to Xorro is considerably more difficult than interfacing to USB (if I wanted to, I could construct a USB peripheral in a few hours, including time spent shopping for components. Xorro --- not a chance, making custom PCBs takes time).

I have yet to see a single feasible suggestion for the use of the Xorro connector which would not be better served with a USB-attached XCore development kit (which can be replaced easily if you make a mistake and let out the magic smoke, of which there can be more than one in use at any given time, and which may be located near the thing the intelligent interface processor is meant to interface with). And no, using it as a dongle to differentiate a "real, non emulated Amiga system" from the evil, emulated Amiga systems such as the AmigaOne XE and uA1 does not count as useful in my books.

@Mechanic

Quote:

. But, what about a game controller with 32+ different output sensors that could work/feel different, depending on what the game is doing, because it has a number of input signals that can modify it's behavior.

That one is a perfect illustration for why sticking the I/O processor onto the motherboard is far from optimal. I don't know what "output sensors" are, but presumably each of them delivers some sort of signal, be it analog or digital. So to hook up this (hypothetical) game controller making use of the I/O provided by the Xorro slot, one would have to route 32+ different signals from the game controller to the motherboard.

I know I like my game controller cables long, thin and flexible, if they have to exist at all. I.e. more like a (4 wire) USB cable with differential signaling, than like a floppy ribbon cable with TTL levels and the resulting short max length (and let's not even think about analog signals being exposed to noise on their long travel to the motherboard).

I/O controllers should sit near the things they interface with. There is a reason that external Amiga keyboards (i.e. for the big box Amigas) always had intelligence built in, and simply sent a serial signal, while at least some of the breadbox Amigas integrated that functionality on the main board, and exposed the full key matrix on the keyboard's (known short, fixed) ribbon cable.

(Oh, and let's be real --- that 32+ sensor game controller is almost certain to come with a USB connector, anyway, if it isn't wireless.)

@Mechanic

Quote:

What if I wanted to connect a X1000 to a large model railroad

Then you use this if you really want the I/O internal to your machine, or this if you at least want an external connector on the back bracket. Or you could more sensibly go with something from here and simplify the cabling between your computer and the model railroad. Or you could use the XCore development kit for the same purpose.

Personally, I'd probably go with this one, because of the flexibility ethernet provides, and the reassuring knowledge that there'd be magnetics (and possibly a switch or two, and maybe even a wireless bridge) between my computer and the nasty model railroad voltages....

@Mechanic

Quote:

OH! (almost forgot) Moxee, I cut the suspenders and yanked a handful of whiskers off your avatar (on this endpoint). Ha,haaaaa.

And you're not going to share?

_________________
Moxee
AmigaOne X1000
AmigaOne XE G4
I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

@Kronos

Quote:

Single-layer in combination with an edge-connector ?

Unless you're being extremely pedantic, then: Yes. I've had plenty of PCB's over the years where the PCB _apart_ from the connector has been single layer, and where the lines on the back side of the edge connector has been brought through to the front.

_________________
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@Kronos

Quote:

One can build a Zorro-card to fixed address ... Autoconfig is something you could add later on if and when you consider making it more than a proto just for your own personal use.

And that's the point, to make it into something that you can release without the possibility of it interfering with other zorro cards connected, you have to go through implementing autoconfig. Which is not impossible, it's just added work and complexity. And of course for a PCI card it's even more involved to make a bus interface.

Quote:

You don't have to get a PCB made to start experimenting/developing with PCI, proto boards can be bought ready-made including the full bus-interface. Sure 200$ and upwards isn't fun, but try getting a PCB with edge-connector made in single quantities and your not that far off.

When making a single quantity prototype board, there's porbably a solution, but that doesn't really help when you want to make certain quantities of it. Also, making simple 2-layer boards with an edge connector isn't going to cost anywhere near $200. Especially when you get it panelised and get several boards per panel (even prototypes are usually made in multiple quantities rather than just one piece). And you're still missing the point entirely. With the Xena/Xorro system most of the work has already been done for you. You can save time and cost designing hardware, and just program the Xena instead. It's a very elegant approach to system design. If the X1000 didn't have this, and instead the only options would be to design a PCI card or a device with a USB interface, then you might as well just use any PC instead of the X1000. I'm not saying that the Xorro is going to bring about a revolution in computing or anything, however it does give the board something special, which nothing else has, which can be a good marketing point, and it can attract potential developers who see nice possibilities with it.

@umisef

Quote:

umisef wrote: @BigBentheAussie Quote: The only thing we can almost guarantee a Xorro board will contain will be more XMOS chips. In which case it makes even less sense to put one on the motherboard, and to use such a cumbersome connector. There are something like 20 signals connecting the "CPU local bus" and the JTAG chain to the on-board XCore. Add a sprinkling of power and grounds, and a any simple connector in the 40 pin range will do. Then designers who want XCore chips on their "Xorro" cards don't have to deal with one chip being of a fixed type, whereas the rest of them are not. A Xorro card designer could even forego XCore chips altogether, if they are not the kind of thing most suitable for the intended purpose, and instead use the connectivity to hook up a microcontroller, an FPGA, or just about anything else desirable. Or, for simple tasks, simply use the CPU GPIO lines directly (preferably with some buffering :).

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I was not for a moment suggesting that an AmigaOne hardware developer would be creating such a card, but was talking about someone like XMOS or the manufacturer of the X1000 using a "Xorro" card containing several XMOS chips for a special purpose application for a particular market. I even provided a link, which you did not copy, to an XMP64 video to demonstrate this possibility. Say what you want about the computational power of these chips used in unison, but at the very least its signal processing capability should be noteworthy, and perhaps there is a market for that. Indeed, I have consistent in my posts in this thread, that this Xena chip and Xorro port was not designed FOR US, but something that could be used "by the way". It was something to help the manufacturer(and perhaps A-Eon) leverage a specific market. The way it has been marketed as an innovative custom chip....while true in a sense....seems to rankle a lot of us who hold the Amiga custom chips in such high regard.

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Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
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@ChrisH

>I'm sure you know what I was trying to get at...

Even a "blank" 2-layer PCB with edge-connector is gonna cost you, and then you have a board where every pin is exposed to the user doing whatever stupidity he wants ....

> Programming pins on an embedded processor is usually very very easy.
If the SDK works on the computer/OS you prefer and if you're willing to get into the quirks the custom C or Basic dialect brings into the equation. With the XMOS you could also run into the need to split of the task onto the cores something where even big SW-packages for desktop CPU fail on a regular basis.
Next thing is you would need do to is to inteface the XMOS-app with an app running on the X1000's main CPU to get some output on the screen and allow the user convinient control.

> Controlling something via USB would take a lot more know-how (and a
> rather bigger software stack,

The USB-stack should be there and creating a device class shouldn't be voodoo afterall. Afterwards you can use every language you want (yes even PortablE ) and every resource of the X1000.

> and a lot more latency)

Thats actually the ONLY point for the XMOS but all example suggested sofar had no need for low latency.

Last edited by Kronos on 16-Mar-2010 at 08:10 AM.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@umisef
Great to see that tech savvy guys like Hans (post 96) see good use of xena, and at least Hyperion/Aeon is giving us a nice computer.
People will find a way to have fun with Xena regardless of the tech mumbo you put on the table so, relax...

_________________
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Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

@Kronos Quote:

Even a "blank" 2-layer PCB with edge-connector is gonna cost you, and then you have a board where every pin is exposed to the user doing whatever stupidity he wants ....

I really think you only exist to criticise (unconstructively), and are truely unable to think even a little for yourself: The first part of the criticism has already been answered when I brought the subject up, while the second part is ridiculous considering the intended purpose of such a home-brew/hardware-hacker/developer card.

I think it's pretty clear you have a personal hate campaign against anything good to do with OS4, and as such it's not worth actually arguing with you.

Last edited by ChrisH on 16-Mar-2010 at 08:51 AM.
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_________________
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@ChrisH

>>SMP (Hyperion has confirmed that they are now doing it)
>Are you SURE? I know they said it was *planned*, but I have not read them saying they are actually working on it yet.

I tried to find the post again, but I failed.
IIRC, it was by HyperionMP or by some of the AOS4 developers.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@ChrisH

Maybe should read what umisef wrote once again ......

When developing HW you most certainly will encounter "magic smoke" at one point or another.

Do it on the blank Xorro card -> good chance of frying (parts of) your motherboard.

Do it on a USB-breakoutboard -> good chance you will fry only that board.

Do it on a PCI-proto-board (these come with a PCI-encoder preassembled) -> good chance of frying just that proto board.

When you are going into production it's no big concern wether you have to add some PCI-encoder reference design to the PCB or not, you have to produce PCBs anyway.

Doing it with USB or PCI allows you serve a wider market as a bonus.

Now you can rant as much as you want about what you think are my motives but rest assured I would be just as uncooperative if Genesi had released such an ill-designed and overpriced Efika2 or Pegasos3.

_________________
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- blame Canada

@thread

The discussion seems very "braindamaged" to me.

xcore on the motherboard does nothing bad. (consumes only micro...milliwats)
No one is forced to use it.
It's just a free option to be used. (better option than a FPGA of SAM)

I'm absolutely sure some people will find some use for it.

The minimum is that people can do experimental coding with it. Before buying extra stand alone boards.

xena's capability depends on how it interfaces with the motherboard. (can it run when PPC is powered off?, etc.)
xorro usability depends on how the connector is done & wired. Let's see when specs come available.


About linux on xcore...
does anyone know what is the minimum setup for xcore to run Linux on it? Surely 64k is too little RAM for that.
UPDATE: http://www.xcore.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=98
OK, it's not running on the xcore. It's a joke.

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_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK
The discussion is braindamaged because people that left the official Amiga endeavours can't stand that those they proclaimed would fail and disappear are actually releasing a new (full)Amiga computer.
All they want to say to the world is that they are not envious since what's been released is crap in reality and they show you how and why (and they don't realize nobody gives a flying c*rap).
Once I will hear criticism coming from people that actively (as in Today) develop on AmigaOS (such as Hans, Cobra or AfxGroup just to name a few) I will take them in consideration.

Untill then all I know is that the X1000 will come out, and it will be great fun for the Amiga community.

People will create cool stuff with the Xmos technology, the OS will be expanded to take full advantege of the HW features, and we are going to have a ton of fun, regardless of Amigans that cannot stand all of the above, because they once said other options should have gone ahead instead of these ones...

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@DAX

Quote:

DAX wrote: @umisef Great to see that tech savvy guys like Hans (post 96) see good use of xena, and at least Hyperion/Aeon is giving us a nice computer. People will find a way to have fun with Xena regardless of the tech mumbo you put on the table so, relax...

Yeah! There you go. Think fun, howto, gee I wonder if?, oh I can use it as
a counter, etc..

I don't have a model railroad. If I did it would have probably been connected
to my first computer (TRS-80) thru the edge connector on the back using buffers,
flip-flops, 2N2222s, relays and selenium rectifiers because that's all that was
available 'to me' at that time.

And tomorrow, I would not connect wires directly to any component on any
motherboard without buffers, opto-isolation, voltage-current-static protection,etc..

USB, RS232, parallel, Ethernet, Xmos, bluetooth, are all different ways of
skinning a cat. Pick one, have fun.

I have yet to see a card that connects a x8 slot to a x1 slot. They will
have to be made, and I won't be making one. If somebody makes a protected
prototyping board for this machine I will buy one. If for no other reason,
just to play with.

When I posted about using Xena/Xorro for a model railroad, it was done so
as a question.
Quote:

What if I wanted to connect a X1000 to a large model railroad and use the Xena/Xorro ..........?

I was not looking for alternate solutions, nor what other minds think is the
only way to do something. It was more to provoke thought about a rather simple
task to be accomplished with the tools at hand. Certainly if control of a model
railroad, in real-time, is feasible then control and monitoring of more complex
systems should (will) be possible. Of course, this is all in the future. And that
is the keyword, future. I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to presenting
a problem involving Xena/Xorro and having others post possible solutions weather
in hard or soft ware. 'Sounds nuts to me, but this might work', would be an acceptable
prologue to a workable solution.

I bought a SAM at a time when I could not really afford to. Why? Mostly
because of the FPGA and connector 'on-board'. Little did I know at the time
that everything about that chip would be kept Top Secret. Heck, my board doesn't
even have the connector. Talk about a useless addition to a MB. A-cube no doubt
incorporates it into some commercial/industrial solution, I simply see it as
tits on a bull. Man, am I looking forward.

A-eon, Hyperion, Xmos, CPU guys, I am ready, as are many others. Get it right,
get it made, lets go forward.

Moxee, I can't post the picture. Your pants fell down and I don't want to be
accused of peddling porno.

@KimmoK

Quote:

It's just a free option to be used. (better option than a FPGA of SAM)

How exactly is the XCore chip a "better option" than the FPGA on the Sam boards?

@DAX

Quote:

The discussion is braindamaged

You forgot to mention all the negativity (that's new catch phrase)

Quote:

and they don't realize nobody gives a flying c*rap

Turning your head and covering your ears is cultish. Remember when Troika shown Amy'05 and Bernd said it won't run because of nature of electricity and all that? Where's Amy'05? You can't just dismiss opinions of people you disagree with.

Quote:

People will create cool stuff with the Xmos technology

I'll bet you a dollar that there will be no usable thing connected to X1000 made by 3th part developers in a first quoter after X1000 will hit shelfs. It's not because people are not capable. Risking your +1500 Euro board is not something that developers do daily.

History of "geek" connectivity on desktop computers is mostly a failure. Be computer had GeekPort and no projects, Sam has FPGA, number of projects that surfaced?

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@DAX

I wouldn't go that far.
While it's obvious that a few people have made it their agenda to do everything they can to poop on anything related to OS4, others either have a bias due to their affiliation or investment in other platforms or are simply critical by nature and will look for flaw in any idea they encounter.

Ignoring the first kind (the party poopers) is the best way to handle it, as for the other two, at least the way I see it, they offer an interesting challenge because regardless of their current opinion you can reason with them and if your arguments truely hold water they'll eventually conceed, and if after playing all your cards you still haven't made a convincing case, either you need more practice defusing skepticism or it can be that they simply have a valid point

_________________
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@Opi
There are those (playful minds) that see a new "thing" and ask themeselves "what can I do with it?" and are exited to make their hands dirty with new projects, there are also those that see it differently, maybe they see better possibilities elsewhere, and I have no problem with that.

Finally we have those that go out of their way (pages and pages of similar posts you could fill an encyclopedia with them), and this kind is hard to understand.

Generally this "sustained" behaviour over a large period of time, boils down to grudge generated by being burned by X (x being indiviuals, goups or products that relates to them) in the past, and leaving the camp to return just to make a godzillion post after post of "anti-" arguments.

@AlexC
The fact is, the system is not out yet, final design is not disclosed yet, so don't worry, when all the customers and developers will have the X1000 in their hands we will be able to talk what's good (and what's not) while we play (and have fun) with the thing

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@umisef

xcore can be programmed on board, by anyone, even automatically via SW. FPGA can not (IIRC).

@opi

IMO, there is no Amiga (custom) connector that guys like Jens of Individual computers have not used & tinkered with ((except the SAM FPGA)). TrevorD might even send him a board for free.


@aeon/TrevorD

Is the xena always reset when PPC is reset?
IMO, it would be usefull if user can reset only either one of them, if one so desires.

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_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?