Regarding wind-power, this is interesting:



http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110331142212.htm

""
In fact, the researchers estimate the value of bats to the agricultural industry is roughly $22.9 billion a year, with the extremes ranging as low as $3.7 and $53 billion a year.
""

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@tomazkid

Thanks and timely. TMT posted about shale gas. It appears to be a large methane releaser and therefore a a large global warming impact.

Unfortunately there's no perfect source of power. The best we can do is calculate their impacts and select the lesser impacting source.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: Unfortunately there's no perfect source of power.

Not perfect, but will be pretty close (if/when it's working):
http://focusfusion.org/
Low cost aneutronic nuclear fusion (with abundant fuel reserves) FTW.

@BrianK

Quote:

Unfortunately there's no perfect source of power. The best we can do is calculate their impacts and select the lesser impacting source.

Any news regarding any progress on how to store electricity surplus in a viable and usable way ?

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@HenryCase
Quote:

Not perfect, but will be pretty close (if/when it's working):

Fusion would seemingly be the most ideal. The question is, as you indicated in brackets, when will it be working.

@tomazkid
Quote:

Any news regarding any progress on how to store electricity surplus in a viable and usable way ?

We create electricity by changing mechanical energy into electromagnetic energy. As such there is no electricity surplus. I think the only type of electricity generation that isn't a mechanical conversion is solar panels.

There are certainly ways to store electricity energy in usable ways. Batteries are one type of chemical storage system. Flywheels are another type of mechanical storage. In the case of hydroelectric plants they do store the energy. If excess electricity exists they use it to pump the water, that just created the power, back into the holding pond so it can produce electricity again. Supercapaciters and Ultracapacitors exist but haven't really hit mainstream use, and perhaps this was what you were referring to? GM is one company that tested supercapacitors in their V8 trucks. They saw roughly a 15% gain in efficency of the system by using a supercapacitor.

@BrianK

Quote:

People will never be 'decarbonized'. It's that simple. We use oil for many products besides power.

On that I agree. Some (like Pielke Jr) advocates economy 'decarbonization' irrespective of climate policy. I can't understand this position. Also I don't see developing nations bypass cheap energies like oil, coal and gases because of an imagined problem. Btw electricity production from oil is marginal in most developed countries.

Quote:

Costs of any new plants are easily excedding $10Billion.

You have to compare the capital cost per unit of energy produced during the expected life time of the plants: if you compare to others energies (see this document [XLS], (right column)), nuclear (in dual configuration) has still the lowest value.

Quote:

Time to build is just under 10 years.

Others are able to build in half. It is unfortunate that bureaucracy has taken down this industry because of a minor incident.

Quote:

In the US projected rates for charging is about 30cents per Kwh. Coal, oil, and natural gas are half that rate. Solar is currently around 25, wind cheaper even

What is the current prices instead?

Bye,
TMTisFree

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The engineering approach to our non-problems: "build a better washer".
The scientific approach to our non-problems: "find a new energy source".
The environmentalist approach to our non-problems: "stop washing your shirts".

@BrianK

Quote:

Unfortunately there's no perfect source of power.

It probably explains why 'back-to-the-caves' environmentalists want none.

Bye,
TMTisFree

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The engineering approach to our non-problems: "build a better washer".
The scientific approach to our non-problems: "find a new energy source".
The environmentalist approach to our non-problems: "stop washing your shirts".

@HenryCase

Quote:

Low cost aneutronic nuclear fusion (with abundant fuel reserves) FTW.

You might be interested by this Low Energy Nuclear Reaction device (patent application [PDF]). More technical explanations and pictures here: Quote:

Focardi and Rossi recently had a public demonstration of a desktop-sized reactor that produces 11 kW of net power for extended periods of time. Both the fuel and residues are clean and free of radioactivity. The fuel is nickel powder and a tiny amount of hydrogen. A gram of nickel generates 2000 kilowatt-hours in this prototype. Rossi's design uses a nickel powder with catalysts instead of nickel sheets. It is therefore capable of producing much more power. In 2010 they jointly published a paper that reported six different experiments with durations of up to 52 days. The longest experiment used 19 kWh of energy input to produce 3768 kWh of output energy. Output/input power ratios as high as 415 were obtained but, in the interest of safety and stability, the device demonstrated on January 14th runs at a power gain ratio of only 15.

Bye,
TMTisFree

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The engineering approach to our non-problems: "build a better washer".
The scientific approach to our non-problems: "find a new energy source".
The environmentalist approach to our non-problems: "stop washing your shirts".

@BrianK

Quote:

Supercapaciters and Ultracapacitors exist but haven't really hit mainstream use, and perhaps this was what you were referring to?

Yes, those.
Something that can store surplus from sun- and wind-power, the hydro plants you mentioned, does indeed do the same, but, at least here in Sweden the oligopoly situation gives the same old story the past few years, "we are low on water, therefore we can't run the hydro plants at full capacity".

(The situation reminds of Enron)

Last edited by tomazkid on 14-Apr-2011 at 11:45 PM.

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@tomazkid

Same excuse as they use here in Norway... They sell most of the power to other countries for a cheap price,while we must pay insane prices...

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@TMTisFree

Quote:

On that I agree. Some (like Pielke Jr) advocates economy 'decarbonization' irrespective of climate policy. I can't understand this position. Also I don't see developing nations bypass cheap energies like oil, coal and gases because of an imagined problem. Btw electricity production from oil is marginal in most developed countries.

Often developing nations may not have oil under their soil. So if they wanted to use oil to power their nation they now have to purchase from a developed nation. This 'enslaves' their nation as power is now an ongoing cost that's made not from internal labor but from borrowed funds.

Quote:

It is unfortunate that bureaucracy has taken down this industry because of a minor incident

We clearly disagree on scale of a minor indicident. Certainly headcount is low but 10Million people are directly impacted by Fukushima. Roughly 10% of Japan. Hardly insignificant.

As to the point it was a decade prior to Fukushima. Not sure if this will add time or not. As newer reactors are a newer generation it perhaps, at best, would have no impact.

Quote:

Quote: In the US projected rates for charging is about 30cents per Kwh. Coal, oil, and natural gas are half that rate. Solar is currently around 25, wind cheaper even What is the current prices instead?

Prices vary depending on type of electricity and area of the Country. I stated half. Rates charged are anywhere from 9 to 16. The one outlier is Hawaii at nearly 28. Current nuclear plants are close to but still more expensive to generate power. And of course that often doesn't include the 10K years of safe storage for the fuel, that's eaten by the government and by taxes.

@BrianK

Quote:

Often developing nations may not have oil under their soil.

If they don't have oil, they have coal or gas (conventional or not). Otherwise see next §.

Quote:

This 'enslaves' their nation as power is now an ongoing cost that's made not from internal labor but from borrowed funds.

There is no more 'enslavement' trading energy than trading any other goods: on the contrary, what free trade and open market have mainly brought is the power to choose a provider according to the price you want to pay, for the benefit of the involved parties: I call that 'liberalization', not 'enslavement'. Isn't the USA the country of freedom where free trade is king?

Quote:

We clearly disagree on scale of a minor indicident.

I was speaking of the US 3MI: clearly a minor incident (fear-mongered and exaggerated by anti-nuclear activists as usual, but it's another history).

Quote:

And of course that often doesn't include the 10K years of safe storage for the fuel, that's eaten by the government and by taxes.

The 'waste' of current plants was anticipated to be the main fuel for the next generation of fast nuclear power plant: too bad Clinton killed it.

Bye,
TMTisFree

_________________
The engineering approach to our non-problems: "build a better washer".
The scientific approach to our non-problems: "find a new energy source".
The environmentalist approach to our non-problems: "stop washing your shirts".

@TMTisFree

Quote:

There is no more 'enslavement' trading energy than trading any other goods: on the contrary, what free trade and open market have mainly brought is the power to choose a provider according to the price you want to pay, for the benefit of the involved parties: I call that 'liberalization', not 'enslavement'. Isn't the USA the country of freedom where free trade is king?

USA is not the king of free trade nor should it be. For example, I can buy power from 1 company. I can buy landline telephone from 1 company. Such a localized monopoly in this supposed 'free trade' system is not liberalization.

Historically unregulated trade has proven to have a few, if not worse 1, victor in the marketplace. While 'liberal' as in many choices for a very short time the unregulated free trade market soon trends towards ownership of the few, and often 1. If there's a monopolistic marketspace the liberalization is clearly gone. The best market for liberalization is one that's lightly regulated to ensure a level playing field. Of course too heavy of regulation again spins into a monoplicable type of system. Once companies have more power than an individual the liberty of that individual has been eroded. The best system I've seen is regulated capitalism. Unregulated capitalism "free trade" is not liberating for the individual.

As for enslavement for trading energy I don't think we have to look any further then the subjecation of Niger by France for cheap Uranium to show a strong example of a case that's opposite to the 'good' energy trading brings.

Quote:

I was speaking of the US 3MI: clearly a minor incident

Thorough product analysis would include lessons for any, if not all, nuclear events.

Quote:

The 'waste' of current plants was anticipated to be the main fuel for the next generation of fast nuclear power plant: too bad Clinton killed it.

Blame USA and Clinton all you want. Neither have control of your nation. Why has France failed to build such a plant?

Last edited by BrianK on 15-Apr-2011 at 07:31 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 15-Apr-2011 at 04:51 PM.

Germany to close all nuclear plants

Magnetic effect of light

Light has a magnetic effect which can be used to induce a current. The lab rates of conversion are about 10%. A bit under what real world solar panels can do.

What's the big whoop?! This is reseach at present. The two applied questions nI see need to be answered are. The first would be a dual purposed solar cells. Could incremental costs be applied in such a way that would 'double' the efficency of solar cells? The second would be in a stand alone system only utilizing this effect could the cost of this system be more economonical than the current cost of solar cells.

Either of those would be a welcome improvement o utlizing part of the 174Petawatts of energy the earth sees from the sun each day.

Last edited by BrianK on 21-Apr-2011 at 04:16 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 21-Apr-2011 at 04:15 PM.

And another item we're seeing all too common. Global warming is inaccurate. It's underestimating the impact. link

@fred

Man its hot here today, 31C

Seems the focus of this thread, might be dieing off soon. I hear Global Cooling is predicted over the next few years. Exciting times at least for my corner of NW Europe.

Last edited by djrikki on 27-Jun-2011 at 01:37 PM.
Last edited by djrikki on 27-Jun-2011 at 01:35 PM.

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@djrikki

Quote:

Man its hot here today, 31C Seems the focus of this thread, might be dieing off soon. I hear Global Cooling is predicted over the next few years. Exciting times at least for my corner of NW Europe.

global cooling? outstanding! bring it on! it's too damn hot in this country anyway.

-- eliyahu

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@djrikki

Quote:

djrikki wrote: @fred Man its hot here today, 31C

Yeah - the thermometer here on my desk at work shows 30 °C at 12:24 - the air con is broken. And the worst of all is that a lake is just around the corner and I have to sit here perspiring instead of going for a swim. That nearly drives me crazy...

Quote:

djrikki wrote: Seems the focus of this thread, might be dieing off soon. I hear Global Cooling is predicted over the next few years. Exciting times at least for my corner of NW Europe.

Well - I also prefer to be frozen instead of being grilled...
But I hadn't heard of that prediction - can you provide a link?

Last edited by Dandy on 28-Jun-2011 at 11:32 AM.

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Dandy
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@Dandy

Sure. It was reported from several sources a couple of weeks ago, here a few:

http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=243172

http://www.skynews.com.au/eco/article.aspx?id=625683

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/jun/16/sun-astronomy

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