@stew

Quote:

stew wrote: @Dandy Quote: How serious am I supposed to take people that can't distinguish between "suing his employer" and "asking the involved parties for a clear statement of ownership/copyright which is legally binding"? I have never had to go to court to get my finance co. to give me a clear statement of ownership. How can we take someone serious that does not understand that this is totaly not necessary. Hyperion can give that binding statement without being included in the suit, so for some reason Hyperion is being sued by former developers.

No.
I don't know where you from - but in that part of the world where I live only a judge can make legally binding statements/decisions.

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Tigger

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Tigger wrote: @Dandy ... By filing a lawsuit (as they have done) they have sued Hyperion by definition,

Tig, you accuse me of not taking 30 seconds time to gooogle to find out if Olaf did actual work on OS 4 or not.
Could you then please take the time and enter "klagen" as query at LEO?

("Klagen" is the German short form of "eine Klage einreichen" (= to file a lawsuit).)

You will get 30 different results for "klagen" - where only six include "sue" in English.
The German translation of "suing someone" more has the meaning of "to file an action against someone", while "klagen" or "eine Klage einreichen" in English just means "to file an action" - not necessary against someone.

"Klagen" can also have the meaning of "moaning" or "complaining" - and that is what fits better to describe what the Developers want to achieve with this legal action. They are complaining that to them it is not clear who owns their work - they themselves, Hyperion or AInc(D) - and ask the court/the judge for a legally binding declaration on this behalf.

Here in Germany this kind of action doesn't have the meaning of "to file an action against someone" (jemanden verklagen) - it just means "to file an action" (klagen - more in the sense of "complaining" or "moaning" about lack of clarity betwenn the parties - not "against someone").

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Tigger wrote: its hard to take someone seriously that doesnt understand the basic definitions.

And it's quite easy to present someone as blockhead because of language barrier...

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Tigger wrote: In addition, if all they wanted was a clear statement from Hyperion, they could have just asked Hyperion to sign such a document,

Yeah - they could as well have asked the next clochard.
Maybe they were fed up with so called "signed documents" that later get disregarded by the other party and want an binding statement from a court of law...

Quote:

Tigger wrote: since that didnt occur, there must be a disagreement about what they want, thats the only reason to go to court over it. ...

And this is where your conspiracy theory begins...

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Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

And the reason behind them sueing Hyperion and not requesting a notarized declartion from Hyperion is? And if Hyperion's case is so air tight, why are they even bothering?

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Dammy

@damocles

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and the reason behind them sueing Hyperion and not requesting a notarized declartion from Hyperion is? And if Hyperion's case is so air tight, why are they even bothering?

Because this is the developers vs Hyperion & AInc, not just Hyperion, and AInc are suing for ownership of the developers work.

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A1XEG3-800 [IBM 750FX PowerPC], running OS4.1FE, using ac97 onboard sound.

"There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't."

@umisef

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Who says the two are mutually exclusive? I submit that more often than not, unscrupulous acts are clever moves from a business perspective :) (Oh, and was that Freudian?)

The lines there are often very blurred or non-existant for sure.

Freudian? Which part? I think we're both on the same page here.

Plaz

@samface

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samface wrote: @Dandy Quote: Dandy wrote: @Kronos Document #26, attachment #4, page 14 of 15 Yep, as proof of Kronos claims*, the announcement you linked to says "Developer Pre-Release". Hyperion wasn't contracted to do a developer version nor a pre-release. The "pre" part in "pre-release" is a clear indication that's it's NOT a proper release. * = I can't believe I'm standing up for one of Kronos claims.

And I can't believe that you are appearently not able to read the complete sentence - as the announcement clearly says: "...the Amiga OS 4.0 Developer Pre-release has gone gold and will be sent to the duplication plant...".

I understand it that way that the "Developer Pre-release" status of OS 4.0 is ends with this announcement, as it "has gone gold and was sent to the duplication plant...".

Why do you think it has been "sent to the duplication plant"?
To give the developers a working copy of the work they had done so far?

I'd rather assume that OS 4.0 was sent to the duplication plant to produce working copies for the A1 customers (=consumers)...

EDIT:
Quoting fixed...

Last edited by Dandy on 06-Mar-2008 at 01:00 PM.

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Plaz
Quote:

AI brought Hyperion in, now they have to clean up the mess.

It is true that AI blessed the whole thing, but from what I've been able to ascertain it was Hyperion together with Eyetech who came begging AInc. to use the Amiga name. Admittedly I wasn't keeping up with it back then but based on Hyperion's recent decision to try and claim the name and all things "Amiga" as their own, well the shoe fits.

What I can't figure out is why Hyperion wanted to use the Amiga name. If they had simply gone their own way and come up with HypeOS entirely on their own, then chances are this whole legal situation wouldn't exist, and the whole community split might also have never happened; there would simply be a choice of Amiga-like OSes without one trying to claim to be the "true" Amiga OS just because at one time they were granted license to use the name.

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Here for the whimpering end

@Swoop

Quote:

Quote: and the reason behind them sueing Hyperion and not requesting a notarized declartion from Hyperion is? And if Hyperion's case is so air tight, why are they even bothering? Because this is the developers vs Hyperion & AInc, not just Hyperion, and AInc are suing for ownership of the developers work.

But Hyperion already sold the OS4 to Itec years ago. Shouldn't the Devs be sueing Hyperion for selling their work prior to them being paid for it? And by the Devs not naming Itec in the law suit, aren't they admitting AI-DE is now in control of OS4?

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Dammy

@Dandy

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I don't know where you from - but in that part of the world where I live only a judge can make legally binding statements/decisions.

But supposedly nobody is asking for a *decision*. Supposedly Hyperion and the developers are in perfect agreement.

Agreements can be made legally binding simply by writing them down on paper and signing them. Yes, even in Germany...

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote: No. I don't know where you from - but in that part of the world where I live only a judge can make legally binding statements/decisions.

I've from the United States, and here (like in your country) a well executed contract is a legally binding decision and it costs lots less.
-Tig

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@Plaz

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Freudian? Which part? I think we're both on the same page here.

The "cleaver move". And "Freudian" as in a "Freudian Slip", i.e. meaning to say one thing, but having one's subconscious subvert the sentence into saying something really more appropriate.

(Where "cleaver" is a large, knife-like thing mainly used by butchers to hack apart bits of meat and cut through bones; Wielded with considerable force, it "cleaves", i.e. destroys, whatever it encounters. Thus a "cleaver move" would be a rather destructive one)

@Dandy

Quote:

I'd rather assume that OS 4.0 was sent to the duplication plant to produce working copies for the A1 customers (=consumers)...

Working copies which came in nifty little envelopes that had "Developer Pre-Release" written all over them, containing CDs which had the same thing written on them.

But if you have any doubts, look at later announcements about "developer pre-release CDs arriving at the dealers", "Developer Pre-Release CDs reaching users" and then for a few years about updates for the developer pre-release.

Sheesh!

@Dandy

Quote:

Tigger wrote: its hard to take someone seriously that doesnt understand the basic definitions.

And it's quite easy to present someone as blockhead because of language barrier...

[/quote]

Well you know Dandy, if you didnt make it so easy. If you werent arguing that the Friedens werent suing Hyperion or thats the only way for the Friedens to get this handled, you wouldnt look so silly, and I honestly dont think it has anything to do with a language barrrier.

Quote:

Tigger wrote: Yeah - they could as well have asked the next clochard. Maybe they were fed up with so called "signed documents" that later get disregarded by the other party and want an binding statement from a court of law...

Which implies that they don't think Hyperion is trust worthy? Again that doesnt sound like we love Hyperion they are great guys thats being pitched is behind this lawsuit.


Quote:

Quote: Tigger wrote: since that didnt occur, there must be a disagreement about what they want, thats the only reason to go to court over it. And this is where your conspiracy theory begins...

They went to court instead of signing a piece of paper, they spend over a 1000 Euros instead of getting Hyperion to sign a piece of paper that would have done the same thing, that would imply that either the Friedens and AV are dumber then rocks or that they couldnt get HERMANS HYPERION LEGEND to agree to sign the paper in question so its not a conspiracy theory, its common sense.
-Tig

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@Swoop

Quote:

Swoop wrote: Because this is the developers vs Hyperion & AInc, not just Hyperion, and AInc are suing for ownership of the developers work.

But it would be a much stronger case if it were the developers & Hyperion vs AInc or even the developers vs AInc instead of what we have now, so the question is why is Hyperion an opponent to what they want?
-Tig

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@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote: And I can't believe that you are appearently not able to read the complete sentence - as the announcement clearly says: "...the Amiga OS 4.0 Developer Pre-release has gone gold and will be sent to the duplication plant...". I understand it that way that the "Developer Pre-release" status of OS 4.0 is ends with this announcement, as it "has gone gold and was sent to the duplication plant...".

Which is funny for two reasons, one the disks in April say Developer Pre-Release, which should be telling everyone its not a completed release ie Pre-Release, and second reason its funny, is that Hyperion doesnt say that the April release is the official release of the software, they say the December 2004 release is the official release, so you arent even arguing the same point as Hyperion, you think they were done 8 months before even Hyperion has the audacity to think it was.
-Tig

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@jorkany

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It is true that AI blessed the whole thing, but from what I've been able to ascertain it was Hyperion together with Eyetech who came begging AInc.

That's the way I understand it too. But it seems that AI didn't have enough forethought to say "Hey, what if this deal goes bad?" or "What happens if we want to drop Hyperion for another developer". My biggest critisism about all of this is that AI didn't do a much better job of drafting a clear contract. These loooong threads trying to establish the meaning, and more so "the intent" of the existing contracts I think lends proof.

Quote:

but based on Hyperion's recent decision to try and claim the name and all things "Amiga" as their own, well the shoe fits.

I can't see that working out in Hyperion's favor. If I understand that part correctly, Hyperion is basically claiming the Amiga trademarks because they were abandoned by AI or not properly transfered to KMOS? I'm a dolt, but that doesn't seem to be a good enough reason for the judge to hand it over to Hyperion. I guess Hyperion's hope is that the judge will see Amino/AI/Itec/KMOS as a shady sham and penalize them by handing over the property to Hyperion?

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If they had simply gone their own way and come up with HypeOS entirely on their own, then chances are this whole legal situation wouldn't exist

We'd probably still be in court for different reasons. Once Hyperion got a look at AOS code, it would have been difficult to do their own OS without AI crying infringement. In hindsight perhaps it would have been in Hyperion's better interest to have backed MOS instead? Once KMOS is done with Hyperion, who's to say MOS is not next on their hit list though?

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the "true" Amiga OS just because at one time they were granted license to use the name.

Long, long ago when I was a more ignorant lad, I hoped that keeping the label AmigaOS would unite interested users and bring the better hope of commercial success than other choices. Too bad I didn't better understand the "behind the scenes" activities and the personalities involved. I would have decided differently. I still think of those days fondly while I'm working on a windows machine.

I find myself emotionaly detached any more from supporting either side in this case. I can only truely give credit to the independant developers for bringing OS4 into existance. I think that legally AI/KMOS has the advantage in the courts, but a win for them probably doesn't mean OS4 or 5 will be showing up on your new desktop.

Plaz

Last edited by Plaz on 06-Mar-2008 at 03:20 PM.

@umisef

Quote:

The "cleaver move"

Ah yes, that was a clever (but unintentional) spelling error wasn't it? They may want to double check which direction the sharp edge is pointing before they swing though.

Plaz

@Plaz

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I guess Hyperion's hope is that the judge will see Amino/AI/Itec/KMOS as a shady sham and penalize them by handing over the property to Hyperion?

Judge Martinez already commented that this was "troubling", but the indication was that this would not come into play into this case. In a separate criminal case against AI, sure...

#6

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@Dandy

I don't know how ya'll (give you a hint of where I am from) get anything done having to involve a judge in every binding agreement. I sign legally binding statements daiuly or at least weekly. Some are work contracts, some are liens, and some are property titles. The only time a judge ever gets involved is when someone disputes the agreement/statement./contract Now why is a judge involved between the OS4 developers and Hyperion again? Is the developers disputing Hyperion's stance or vice versa, or is something else going on?

@AmigaPhil

When is the next court date and what will be acted on next by the Honorable Judge Ricardo S Martinez?